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>The Fourth Estate has fallen into disrepair due to their close adherence to progressive extremist ideology and their objectivity is rightly attacked. [citatio

by jaynos 10y ago

>The Fourth Estate has fallen into disrepair due to their close adherence to progressive extremist ideology and their objectivity is rightly attacked. [citation needed]. The MSM needs some repair, but I'd say that repair should be moving away from the "both sides do it" and "two sides to every argument" mentality and delivering the truth. On issues like climate change, equal weight does not need to be given to the "it's a hoax" crowd.

james0001 10y ago
Why not? The science is far from settled. In much the same way that the media leans left, so does academia. Academia is not immune from corruption, and dare I say, academia is a worse swamp than Washington.
- james0001 10y ago
  Oof, I must've offended a couple academics
  - yolesaber 10y ago
    I think it's because you denied climate change or rather hand-waved it away with "the science is far from settled" ~ as if science is EVER settled. Humans are undeniably accelerating climate change for the worse. Species are dying off left and right from it. Why is this controversial?
    - Jimbob12 10y ago
      Yes we are in a mass-extinction event, but no that is not because of climate change. Rather it is because we are destroying habitats left and right through deforestation, pollution, etc. Climate change is happening at such a slow glacial pace; I haven't seen any good data to suggest that the Climate is changing fast enough to produce harm.
- 1024core 10y ago
  When 99% of the academics agree on something, you could say the science is more-or-less settled. If you disagree, the onus is on you to come up with the evidence/theory to challenge it. Just claiming that "science is far from settled" doesn't make it so; you might as well claim that the "science is far from settled" on the Earth not being flat.
  - refurb 10y ago
    When 99% of the academics agree on something, you could say the science is more-or-less settled. Go back 50 years and 100% of doctors thought stress and diet caused stomach ulcers. We now know that's not true. I'm not using this fact as a knock against climate change. I'm just saying consensus across academics doesn't mean they are right. If you had said "There is consensus across academics that humans activity is mostly likely the cause of global warming" than I wouldn't disagree.
    - ihsw 10y ago
      You are correct that appeal-to-authority arguments are inherently weak but it doesn't change the fact that his hand-wavy "it's not settled!" argument is even weaker. To take your remark about doctor's a century earlier, germ theory was met with derision[1] : > [...] Some doctors, for instance, were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands, feeling that their social status as gentlemen was inconsistent with the idea that their hands could be unclean. Sometimes prevailing wisdom is discountable but sometimes it's not. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis#Discovery_of_cadaverous_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis#Discovery_of_...
    - 1024core 10y ago
      I said nothing. I was just saying that if you want to go against scientific consensus, the onus is on you to provide proof! You can't just say "I disagree with them, so they must be wrong". It doesn't work that way. This is how science works: there's a current understanding of the world; and if you want to change that, you have to come up with the counterexamples or other scientific evidence to back up your claim. You can't just stick your head in the sand and say that since I don't believe these guys, they must be wrong.
- ihsw 10y ago
  It's sad to see that climate-deniers are still pushing their agenda when the facts so plainly speak for themselves. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, science is rarely settled. That is what makes it science, evidence is provided and notions are challenged -- indisputable axioms are very rare. Nevertheless we can still point to the results of rigorous studies and accept that their weight is enough to arrive at a reasonable assumption that global warming is real and it's not going away.
- titzer 10y ago
  Yeah, well, the General Theory of Relativity doesn't predict the motions of galaxies very well (without dark matter), and is not compatible with quantum mechanics. But try getting GPS to work without it. You think 2016 wasn't hot? (surprise answer, it really freaking was, and it's getting worse: http://www.nasa-usa.de/feature/goddard/2016/climate-trends-continue-to-break-records http://www.nasa-usa.de/feature/goddard/2016/climate-trends-c...)
  - raattgift 10y ago
    The incompatibility of QFT and GR is a theoretical incompatibility. Practically, however, GR is perfectly compatible with quantum mechanics right to the limit of strong gravity, which can only find inside black hole event horizons (and in particular at and very near the singularity), and in the very early universe. In GR terms, strong gravity is where the uncertainty in position of field quanta sources an impossible gravitational field; this is only measurable when the energy-density is non-negligible and that requires enormous quantum numbers. In quantum field theory terms, the (general, not just electromagnetic) charge of a particle and its energy are separate quantities except for the gravitational charge of a particle, which is its energy. Because the gravitational interaction is so weak, this only matters when particle energies are very high (on Feynman diagrams, this means more than one loop of gravitons; while gravitons are massless they do carry momentum, and thus have energy, and thus gravitational charge). The clocks in GPS satellites all rely on quantum effects, and those effects that run faster further from the Earth than they did closer to the Earth prior to launch. GNSS applications, as well as atomic clocks on spacecraft scattered around the solar system, are ongoing tests of the validity of this prediction of GR. It is precisely because General Relativity is an effective field theory (in the Kenneth G Wilson sense of effective) in all presently accessible regimes, and has so far survived every test -- direct and indirect -- that it is extremely hard to arrive at an explanation for the effects of gravity pointing the wrong way other than non-luminous, transparent matter rather than a different theory of gravity.
yolesaber 10y ago
Glenn Greenwald has a great essay on the false notion of "neutrality" in MSM - https://theintercept.com/2016/03/14/the-rise-of-trump-shows-the-danger-and-sham-of-compelled-journalistic-neutrality/ https://theintercept.com/2016/03/14/the-rise-of-trump-shows-...
- andrewingram 10y ago
  (Slight tangent alert) Sadly, Glenn Greenwald's interactions with Sam Harris have severely tarnished his credibility as a champion of objectivity in my eyes. Harris has a weakness in that he's very good at putting out content that's easy to cherry-pick in an uncharitable way, and this is what Greenwald seems to do every single time.
ihsw 10y ago
Lying by omission is still technically truthful, how can you reconcile your proposition with the fact that the MSM clearly downplayed Clinton's shortcomings while highlighting Trump's at every moment?
- matt4077 10y ago
  Maybe Clinton's shortcoming was her choice of E-Mail provider while Trump is, indisputably, a proto-fascist? I mean, it's now admitted fact the Russian government tried to influence the election with the leaks, other hacks and a myriad other ways that must have had a significant effect. Can you imagine what Breitbart et al would have written if Obama 2012 had been elected with help from Russia?
  - MK999 10y ago
    Hillary's shortcoming was 40 years of corruption

by jaynos 10y ago

james0001 10y ago

Why not? The science is far from settled. In much the same way that the media leans left, so does academia. Academia is not immune from corruption, and dare I say, academia is a worse swamp than Washington.

james0001 10y ago
Oof, I must've offended a couple academics
- yolesaber 10y ago
  I think it's because you denied climate change or rather hand-waved it away with "the science is far from settled" ~ as if science is EVER settled. Humans are undeniably accelerating climate change for the worse. Species are dying off left and right from it. Why is this controversial?
  - Jimbob12 10y ago
    Yes we are in a mass-extinction event, but no that is not because of climate change. Rather it is because we are destroying habitats left and right through deforestation, pollution, etc. Climate change is happening at such a slow glacial pace; I haven't seen any good data to suggest that the Climate is changing fast enough to produce harm.
1024core 10y ago
When 99% of the academics agree on something, you could say the science is more-or-less settled. If you disagree, the onus is on you to come up with the evidence/theory to challenge it. Just claiming that "science is far from settled" doesn't make it so; you might as well claim that the "science is far from settled" on the Earth not being flat.
- refurb 10y ago
  When 99% of the academics agree on something, you could say the science is more-or-less settled. Go back 50 years and 100% of doctors thought stress and diet caused stomach ulcers. We now know that's not true. I'm not using this fact as a knock against climate change. I'm just saying consensus across academics doesn't mean they are right. If you had said "There is consensus across academics that humans activity is mostly likely the cause of global warming" than I wouldn't disagree.
  - ihsw 10y ago
    You are correct that appeal-to-authority arguments are inherently weak but it doesn't change the fact that his hand-wavy "it's not settled!" argument is even weaker. To take your remark about doctor's a century earlier, germ theory was met with derision[1] : > [...] Some doctors, for instance, were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands, feeling that their social status as gentlemen was inconsistent with the idea that their hands could be unclean. Sometimes prevailing wisdom is discountable but sometimes it's not. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis#Discovery_of_cadaverous_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis#Discovery_of_...
  - 1024core 10y ago
    I said nothing. I was just saying that if you want to go against scientific consensus, the onus is on you to provide proof! You can't just say "I disagree with them, so they must be wrong". It doesn't work that way. This is how science works: there's a current understanding of the world; and if you want to change that, you have to come up with the counterexamples or other scientific evidence to back up your claim. You can't just stick your head in the sand and say that since I don't believe these guys, they must be wrong.
ihsw 10y ago
It's sad to see that climate-deniers are still pushing their agenda when the facts so plainly speak for themselves. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, science is rarely settled. That is what makes it science, evidence is provided and notions are challenged -- indisputable axioms are very rare. Nevertheless we can still point to the results of rigorous studies and accept that their weight is enough to arrive at a reasonable assumption that global warming is real and it's not going away.
titzer 10y ago
Yeah, well, the General Theory of Relativity doesn't predict the motions of galaxies very well (without dark matter), and is not compatible with quantum mechanics. But try getting GPS to work without it. You think 2016 wasn't hot? (surprise answer, it really freaking was, and it's getting worse: http://www.nasa-usa.de/feature/goddard/2016/climate-trends-continue-to-break-records http://www.nasa-usa.de/feature/goddard/2016/climate-trends-c...)
- raattgift 10y ago
  The incompatibility of QFT and GR is a theoretical incompatibility. Practically, however, GR is perfectly compatible with quantum mechanics right to the limit of strong gravity, which can only find inside black hole event horizons (and in particular at and very near the singularity), and in the very early universe. In GR terms, strong gravity is where the uncertainty in position of field quanta sources an impossible gravitational field; this is only measurable when the energy-density is non-negligible and that requires enormous quantum numbers. In quantum field theory terms, the (general, not just electromagnetic) charge of a particle and its energy are separate quantities except for the gravitational charge of a particle, which is its energy. Because the gravitational interaction is so weak, this only matters when particle energies are very high (on Feynman diagrams, this means more than one loop of gravitons; while gravitons are massless they do carry momentum, and thus have energy, and thus gravitational charge). The clocks in GPS satellites all rely on quantum effects, and those effects that run faster further from the Earth than they did closer to the Earth prior to launch. GNSS applications, as well as atomic clocks on spacecraft scattered around the solar system, are ongoing tests of the validity of this prediction of GR. It is precisely because General Relativity is an effective field theory (in the Kenneth G Wilson sense of effective) in all presently accessible regimes, and has so far survived every test -- direct and indirect -- that it is extremely hard to arrive at an explanation for the effects of gravity pointing the wrong way other than non-luminous, transparent matter rather than a different theory of gravity.

yolesaber 10y ago

Glenn Greenwald has a great essay on the false notion of "neutrality" in MSM - https://theintercept.com/2016/03/14/the-rise-of-trump-shows-the-danger-and-sham-of-compelled-journalistic-neutrality/ https://theintercept.com/2016/03/14/the-rise-of-trump-shows-...

andrewingram 10y ago
(Slight tangent alert) Sadly, Glenn Greenwald's interactions with Sam Harris have severely tarnished his credibility as a champion of objectivity in my eyes. Harris has a weakness in that he's very good at putting out content that's easy to cherry-pick in an uncharitable way, and this is what Greenwald seems to do every single time.

ihsw 10y ago

Lying by omission is still technically truthful, how can you reconcile your proposition with the fact that the MSM clearly downplayed Clinton's shortcomings while highlighting Trump's at every moment?

matt4077 10y ago
Maybe Clinton's shortcoming was her choice of E-Mail provider while Trump is, indisputably, a proto-fascist? I mean, it's now admitted fact the Russian government tried to influence the election with the leaks, other hacks and a myriad other ways that must have had a significant effect. Can you imagine what Breitbart et al would have written if Obama 2012 had been elected with help from Russia?
- MK999 10y ago
  Hillary's shortcoming was 40 years of corruption