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> EDIT: also, the fact that during the >150 years occupation we've managed to stay separate nation (despite huge efforts by Russia to integrate us) and keep our

by nj923f 10y ago

> EDIT: also, the fact that during the >150 years occupation we've managed to stay separate nation (despite huge efforts by Russia to integrate us) and keep our identity strong, says a lot of how different we are. There was no "150 years of occupation", AFAIK even Lithuania's government officially talks only about 50 years of occupation by USSR. And most of the countries that were part of USSR managed to keep their identities (basically everyone apart from Belarus), so integration efforts haven't really that "huge".

kbart 10y ago
"There was no "150 years of occupation" 50 years by USSR + ~100 years by Russian Empire[0] "integration efforts haven't really that "huge"." Mass deportations[1] (5% of the population, most of whom died during severe Siberian winters), total ban of press and schools in local language[2][3], oppressive state police to prosecute or silently get rid of anybody standing against occupant government[4]. In my dictionary, that amounts to "huge" easily. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#Under_Imperial_Russia.2C_World_War_I_.281795.E2.80.931918.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#Under_Imp... 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithu... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_press_ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_press_ban 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Poland_and_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Poland_and_Lithu... 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB
ptaipale 10y ago
Most of Lithuania was annexed by Russia by 1795, the final step in partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. 1800's was a period of Russification, revolts, and crushing of those revolts. Then, in World War I, Lithuania gained independence again in 1918. That's >120 years of occupation or foreign rule. Then Lithuani lost independence again, to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1940, was rolled over twice in the course of WWII, and finally became independent again in 1991. That's another 50 years. In Finland, we have a saying "We're not Swedes, we do not want to become Russians; let us be Finns". Same seems to apply to Baltic states. I haven't followed up the development in Lithuania in particular, but Estonia had roughly the same population in 1959 as it had in 1939. The difference was that almost one third of the old population had been eradicated and replaced by Russians (and other Soviet nationals). This is a fairly huge "integration effort", if we use that euphemism.
- ni923f 10y ago
  > Most of Lithuania was annexed by Russia by 1795 > ... > That's >120 years of occupation or foreign rule. Especially in the era of colonialism/imperialism. You are right, but foregin rule does not amount to occupation. Also, none of the "big players" in Europe has perfectly good consciousness with regards to borders, so we generally disregard everything that happened before 20th century. I understand that it's painful for smaller nations, but this is exactly the reason WWI happened, and we don't want that to return. > I haven't followed up the development in Lithuania in particular, but Estonia had roughly the same population in 1959 as it had in 1939. The difference was that almost one third of the old population had been eradicated and replaced by Russians (and other Soviet nationals). > This is a fairly huge "integration effort", if we use that euphemism. Yep, that's the famous "soviet reshuffling". People were incentivised to move to other regions. That was mostly done with positive things though, e.g. young family could get a free flat if they moved to other SSR. Also, drafts would usually send soldiers far from home, so that they could get to know a new region (and many stayed there after getting out of millitary). Your explanation "The difference was that almost one third of the old population had been eradicated and replaced by Russians (and other Soviet nationals)." doesn't seem to be supported by facts though. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Estonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Estonia we get 992,520 Estonians in 1934 and 892,653 in 1959. The 10% difference could be accounted if you take into account people that died in WWII, those that have emigrated when soviets came, reshuffling that I mentioned and just people claiming to be russians (which was a thing). If you have other sources or more in-depth research, I would absolutely love to read it.
  - PerfectDlite 10y ago
    > That was mostly done with positive things though Yeaaah... Like fill up space 'vacated' by people sent to Siberia or killed in Holodomor. Totally positive things.
nj923f 10y ago
> 50 years by USSR + ~100 years by Russian Empire[0] Lithuania in fact was part of Russian Empire. That does not classify it as occupation. There is no mention of occupation in your article, nor it is called an occupation by Lithuanian government. Also, it's a bad idea to revision 19th century Europe, as pretty much every country (that existed at that time in Europe) had done some pretty outrageous things then (by modern standards). > Mass deportations[1] (5% of the population, most of whom died during severe Siberian winters) Why are you bringing deportations into conversation about Soviet integration efforts? That obviously was a terrifying thing to do, but was completely irrelevant to russification/integration. Also, the wiki article that you provide as a source quotes 28,000 that died in exile out of 130,000, that makes your statement about most of them dying in Siberian winters false (not that it has anything to do with this discussion anyway). > total ban of press and schools in local language[2][3] As for the press ban link, it's a bit misleading here, because what was actually banned in Russian Empire was Latin alphabet, which of course targeted newly acquired Polish/Lithuanian territories, but you were still allowed to publish books in Lithuanian language in cyrillics (and that was done). So, it was more of a language reform than a total ban of its usage. In fact, this is pretty similar to how Japan after WWII tried to move from its Kanji hieroglyphical writing (which was associated with communist China) to romaji/latin (which was associated with their new allies - US). > oppressive state police to prosecute or silently get rid of anybody standing against occupant government Police in Russian Empire was ready to silently get rid of anybody standing against government, period. That has nothing to do whether that anybody happened to be/live in Vilnius or Moscow. Also, political oppression and scare tactics are pretty much irrelevant to discussion about russification/sovietization/integration efforts.
- kbart 10y ago
  "Why are you bringing deportations into conversation about Soviet integration efforts?" Because most of those deported were well educated people -- teachers, doctors, engineers etc. and their families. It was done to get rid of any influential people with authority, that could teach others and later cause problems. It's much easier to control uneducated people, especially when there's nobody around to counter-argument propaganda. Also, deported population was replaced by immigrant Russians. The rest of your comment is nitpicking not worth discussing.

by nj923f 10y ago

kbart 10y ago

"There was no "150 years of occupation" 50 years by USSR + ~100 years by Russian Empire[0] "integration efforts haven't really that "huge"." Mass deportations[1] (5% of the population, most of whom died during severe Siberian winters), total ban of press and schools in local language[2][3], oppressive state police to prosecute or silently get rid of anybody standing against occupant government[4]. In my dictionary, that amounts to "huge" easily. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#Under_Imperial_Russia.2C_World_War_I_.281795.E2.80.931918.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#Under_Imp... 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithu... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_press_ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_press_ban 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Poland_and_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Poland_and_Lithu... 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB

ptaipale 10y ago

Most of Lithuania was annexed by Russia by 1795, the final step in partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. 1800's was a period of Russification, revolts, and crushing of those revolts. Then, in World War I, Lithuania gained independence again in 1918. That's >120 years of occupation or foreign rule. Then Lithuani lost independence again, to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1940, was rolled over twice in the course of WWII, and finally became independent again in 1991. That's another 50 years. In Finland, we have a saying "We're not Swedes, we do not want to become Russians; let us be Finns". Same seems to apply to Baltic states. I haven't followed up the development in Lithuania in particular, but Estonia had roughly the same population in 1959 as it had in 1939. The difference was that almost one third of the old population had been eradicated and replaced by Russians (and other Soviet nationals). This is a fairly huge "integration effort", if we use that euphemism.

ni923f 10y ago
> Most of Lithuania was annexed by Russia by 1795 > ... > That's >120 years of occupation or foreign rule. Especially in the era of colonialism/imperialism. You are right, but foregin rule does not amount to occupation. Also, none of the "big players" in Europe has perfectly good consciousness with regards to borders, so we generally disregard everything that happened before 20th century. I understand that it's painful for smaller nations, but this is exactly the reason WWI happened, and we don't want that to return. > I haven't followed up the development in Lithuania in particular, but Estonia had roughly the same population in 1959 as it had in 1939. The difference was that almost one third of the old population had been eradicated and replaced by Russians (and other Soviet nationals). > This is a fairly huge "integration effort", if we use that euphemism. Yep, that's the famous "soviet reshuffling". People were incentivised to move to other regions. That was mostly done with positive things though, e.g. young family could get a free flat if they moved to other SSR. Also, drafts would usually send soldiers far from home, so that they could get to know a new region (and many stayed there after getting out of millitary). Your explanation "The difference was that almost one third of the old population had been eradicated and replaced by Russians (and other Soviet nationals)." doesn't seem to be supported by facts though. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Estonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Estonia we get 992,520 Estonians in 1934 and 892,653 in 1959. The 10% difference could be accounted if you take into account people that died in WWII, those that have emigrated when soviets came, reshuffling that I mentioned and just people claiming to be russians (which was a thing). If you have other sources or more in-depth research, I would absolutely love to read it.
- PerfectDlite 10y ago
  > That was mostly done with positive things though Yeaaah... Like fill up space 'vacated' by people sent to Siberia or killed in Holodomor. Totally positive things.

nj923f 10y ago

> 50 years by USSR + ~100 years by Russian Empire[0] Lithuania in fact was part of Russian Empire. That does not classify it as occupation. There is no mention of occupation in your article, nor it is called an occupation by Lithuanian government. Also, it's a bad idea to revision 19th century Europe, as pretty much every country (that existed at that time in Europe) had done some pretty outrageous things then (by modern standards). > Mass deportations[1] (5% of the population, most of whom died during severe Siberian winters) Why are you bringing deportations into conversation about Soviet integration efforts? That obviously was a terrifying thing to do, but was completely irrelevant to russification/integration. Also, the wiki article that you provide as a source quotes 28,000 that died in exile out of 130,000, that makes your statement about most of them dying in Siberian winters false (not that it has anything to do with this discussion anyway). > total ban of press and schools in local language[2][3] As for the press ban link, it's a bit misleading here, because what was actually banned in Russian Empire was Latin alphabet, which of course targeted newly acquired Polish/Lithuanian territories, but you were still allowed to publish books in Lithuanian language in cyrillics (and that was done). So, it was more of a language reform than a total ban of its usage. In fact, this is pretty similar to how Japan after WWII tried to move from its Kanji hieroglyphical writing (which was associated with communist China) to romaji/latin (which was associated with their new allies - US). > oppressive state police to prosecute or silently get rid of anybody standing against occupant government Police in Russian Empire was ready to silently get rid of anybody standing against government, period. That has nothing to do whether that anybody happened to be/live in Vilnius or Moscow. Also, political oppression and scare tactics are pretty much irrelevant to discussion about russification/sovietization/integration efforts.

kbart 10y ago
"Why are you bringing deportations into conversation about Soviet integration efforts?" Because most of those deported were well educated people -- teachers, doctors, engineers etc. and their families. It was done to get rid of any influential people with authority, that could teach others and later cause problems. It's much easier to control uneducated people, especially when there's nobody around to counter-argument propaganda. Also, deported population was replaced by immigrant Russians. The rest of your comment is nitpicking not worth discussing.