5 ms·

We released a blog post and video to explain more about the vision behind the app: https://medium.com/@CrimeNoMore/vigilante-manifesto-e665696a4ebb https://med

We released a blog post and video to explain more about the vision behind the app: https://medium.com/@CrimeNoMore/vigilante-manifesto-e665696a4ebb https://medium.com/@CrimeNoMore/vigilante-manifesto-e665696a...

mikeash 10y ago
Interesting idea, but highly unfortunate name. Why choose something with such negative connotations in this context?
ch4s3 10y ago
Your claim about 2015 murder rates seems to be fear-mongering, from where I stand. The murder rate nationally is at a 51 year low, even with the 2015 uptick[1]. What exactly is the aim here? Your question "Could we restore trust between law enforcement and community" doesn't seem to be answered in the post, and the implication that your app could do this seems dubious. Is you aim to get people to flock to 911 calls and film them? That seems like what the post is driving at, but never directly says. [1]https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low
- incongruity 10y ago
  Additionally, the focus on murder rates is flawed for a few reasons: 1) Murders are not evenly distributed in most (all?) cities. In Chicago, for example, violence is heavily concentrated in certain areas. That means it's not a generalized problem yet this app doesn't address that clustering in a meaningful way. 2) Murders are not the crime that most people will feel comfortable intervening in – and, arguably, not one that is most high-value to report in the moment – unless you're focusing on armed, trained responders – who are likely going to be Police (unless we're getting into militia here and that's a whole different discussion). Instead, less violent offenses seem more manageable as a starting point. What if a purse snatching was reported? To be honest, I'm still not sure what value the app provides – generally speaking, this looks to encourage mob justice which is fraught with risk of mistaken identity and violations of individual rights. For the creators – what, specifically, are you looking for members of the public to do? This strikes me as another one of the AWARENESS!! "solutions" – assuming that awareness is the problem – honestly, especially in crime solving, I don't think that's the issue. Awareness of identifiable precursors to crime? That'd be really useful (what they are, I have no clue). Awareness of active shooter situations? Also useful – but much more rare and less about fixing an more about avoiding for the general user...
  - messel 10y ago
    I consider this app as an extension of my senses. I get a push message when an emergency is happening nearby. Maybe I can help, maybe its none of my business, maybe I'll completely avoid that block. But I get a choice, where my earlier ignorance is no choice at all. It's the technological equivalent of someone shouting for help. You can assist or not. Disclaimer: I helped build the backend so I'm biased.
    - HorizonXP 10y ago
      But how often is something like that even happening? I doubt many of Vigilante's users live in a place like Mogadishu, or Cape Town, or some stereotypical violent city where "avoiding an area" is necessary. And if you do, I'm not sure how the app really makes a difference.
      - messel 10y ago
        Great question. When I was a kid (11-12) I injured my neck and was pretty worried, stuck lying down, and my pop called 911 to ask for help. A neighbor two houses down was a volunteer fireman so he heard the call over the radio. He headed over and helped make my family and I much more calm while we waited for emergency professionals to show up. Caring about the safety of people in your neighborhood is a great start. Technology playing a role feels like less of a gamble and more of an inevitability.
        MichaelGG 10y ago
        Was your neck injured due to a crime? Maybe target this app as a public safety tool, not a vigilante crimestopper system. Edit: A really great angle is allowing groups of people to get notified together. Works best with phone integration. At my last company I created a 9-1-1 product that does exactly that. A user could load neighbours or relatives to be alerted and listen in to their 9-1-1 calls. That way if, say, an elderly relative called 9-1-1, nearby family could perhaps intervene (for minor stuff or cases where the caller is suffering from a mental lapse) or at least know what's going on immediately. This is also a great value add to businesses or campuses that want to know about emergencies in real time for coordinated response. Or just to know when paramedics come in the front door, who is having the incident so they can efficiently direct them.
- jdmaresco 10y ago
  We debated whether to leave those statistics in, even though we're citing major sources. You can look at these statistics from different angles. Our main point is that there is still a real and often growing problem with violent crime, especially in the communities we're working with. Many people still feel very unsafe and are looking for solutions. We've gotten a lot of positive feedback both from police and civilians. People are excited to see a tech company trying to help, and they have told us they feel safer when others are recording the scene in a peaceful and unbiased way. During our beta tests we had users help deter crime, break up fights, and support their neighbors.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Which 5 communities have the most growth in violent crime? (or 10 or 20 if you feel like it)
  - ch4s3 10y ago
    >Our main point is that there is still a real and often growing problem with violent crime That's just it though, the data do not support this claim. The general trend is decreasing crime. In fact the sole source you cite says: >Many crime experts warn against reading too much into recent statistics. In fact, murder rates remained largely unchanged in 70 cities, and decreased significantly in five. “Even if the uptick continues in some cities, I doubt the pattern will become universal,” Dr. Sampson said. And sure, you have some positive feedback, great. But how often has your app been misused? How "concerned citizens" mistaken an innocent person as having been involved in a crime? What about the privacy of victims of crimes? How do you store your data? How do you ensure privacy? Do you give data to law enforcement? Without warrants? Do you disclose any of this data? What do you do to protect extra sensitive data like domestic abuse, and sexual assaults? Why should we trust you?
SamBam 10y ago
In your video: "This is a real app, and these are real users." What does that even mean? "Real users" in this case means you downloaded a copy of the app onto their phone, before you started directing the actors?
- jdmaresco 10y ago
  All of the people in the video who are using the app and responding to the alert are actual users who have been actively participating in our beta in New York City.
dsl 10y ago
How are you getting live access to 911 calls? Or are you just showing crimes reported by other users?
- cypherpunks01 10y ago
  The video appears to imply that the app has operators that are transcribing police scanner activity into app reports, I don't believe there is any non-public info being accessed or govt partnership here or else I would think it would be advertised. Can someone confirm if this implication is correct? I always had the idea that more and more NYC police radios are being trunked and encrypted in ways that the public can no longer access, does anyone know if this is the case?
  - JshWright 10y ago
    I don't know about NYC specifically, but that is generally the case across the country (I'm a paramedic and ham radio operator).
sctb 10y ago
We've updated the link to this from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/vigilante-crime-awareness/id1039889567?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/vigilante-crime-awareness/id....

mikeash 10y ago

Interesting idea, but highly unfortunate name. Why choose something with such negative connotations in this context?

ch4s3 10y ago

Your claim about 2015 murder rates seems to be fear-mongering, from where I stand. The murder rate nationally is at a 51 year low, even with the 2015 uptick[1]. What exactly is the aim here? Your question "Could we restore trust between law enforcement and community" doesn't seem to be answered in the post, and the implication that your app could do this seems dubious. Is you aim to get people to flock to 911 calls and film them? That seems like what the post is driving at, but never directly says. [1]https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low

incongruity 10y ago
Additionally, the focus on murder rates is flawed for a few reasons: 1) Murders are not evenly distributed in most (all?) cities. In Chicago, for example, violence is heavily concentrated in certain areas. That means it's not a generalized problem yet this app doesn't address that clustering in a meaningful way. 2) Murders are not the crime that most people will feel comfortable intervening in – and, arguably, not one that is most high-value to report in the moment – unless you're focusing on armed, trained responders – who are likely going to be Police (unless we're getting into militia here and that's a whole different discussion). Instead, less violent offenses seem more manageable as a starting point. What if a purse snatching was reported? To be honest, I'm still not sure what value the app provides – generally speaking, this looks to encourage mob justice which is fraught with risk of mistaken identity and violations of individual rights. For the creators – what, specifically, are you looking for members of the public to do? This strikes me as another one of the AWARENESS!! "solutions" – assuming that awareness is the problem – honestly, especially in crime solving, I don't think that's the issue. Awareness of identifiable precursors to crime? That'd be really useful (what they are, I have no clue). Awareness of active shooter situations? Also useful – but much more rare and less about fixing an more about avoiding for the general user...
- messel 10y ago
  I consider this app as an extension of my senses. I get a push message when an emergency is happening nearby. Maybe I can help, maybe its none of my business, maybe I'll completely avoid that block. But I get a choice, where my earlier ignorance is no choice at all. It's the technological equivalent of someone shouting for help. You can assist or not. Disclaimer: I helped build the backend so I'm biased.
  - HorizonXP 10y ago
    But how often is something like that even happening? I doubt many of Vigilante's users live in a place like Mogadishu, or Cape Town, or some stereotypical violent city where "avoiding an area" is necessary. And if you do, I'm not sure how the app really makes a difference.
    - messel 10y ago
      Great question. When I was a kid (11-12) I injured my neck and was pretty worried, stuck lying down, and my pop called 911 to ask for help. A neighbor two houses down was a volunteer fireman so he heard the call over the radio. He headed over and helped make my family and I much more calm while we waited for emergency professionals to show up. Caring about the safety of people in your neighborhood is a great start. Technology playing a role feels like less of a gamble and more of an inevitability.
      - MichaelGG 10y ago
        Was your neck injured due to a crime? Maybe target this app as a public safety tool, not a vigilante crimestopper system. Edit: A really great angle is allowing groups of people to get notified together. Works best with phone integration. At my last company I created a 9-1-1 product that does exactly that. A user could load neighbours or relatives to be alerted and listen in to their 9-1-1 calls. That way if, say, an elderly relative called 9-1-1, nearby family could perhaps intervene (for minor stuff or cases where the caller is suffering from a mental lapse) or at least know what's going on immediately. This is also a great value add to businesses or campuses that want to know about emergencies in real time for coordinated response. Or just to know when paramedics come in the front door, who is having the incident so they can efficiently direct them.
jdmaresco 10y ago
We debated whether to leave those statistics in, even though we're citing major sources. You can look at these statistics from different angles. Our main point is that there is still a real and often growing problem with violent crime, especially in the communities we're working with. Many people still feel very unsafe and are looking for solutions. We've gotten a lot of positive feedback both from police and civilians. People are excited to see a tech company trying to help, and they have told us they feel safer when others are recording the scene in a peaceful and unbiased way. During our beta tests we had users help deter crime, break up fights, and support their neighbors.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Which 5 communities have the most growth in violent crime? (or 10 or 20 if you feel like it)
- ch4s3 10y ago
  >Our main point is that there is still a real and often growing problem with violent crime That's just it though, the data do not support this claim. The general trend is decreasing crime. In fact the sole source you cite says: >Many crime experts warn against reading too much into recent statistics. In fact, murder rates remained largely unchanged in 70 cities, and decreased significantly in five. “Even if the uptick continues in some cities, I doubt the pattern will become universal,” Dr. Sampson said. And sure, you have some positive feedback, great. But how often has your app been misused? How "concerned citizens" mistaken an innocent person as having been involved in a crime? What about the privacy of victims of crimes? How do you store your data? How do you ensure privacy? Do you give data to law enforcement? Without warrants? Do you disclose any of this data? What do you do to protect extra sensitive data like domestic abuse, and sexual assaults? Why should we trust you?

SamBam 10y ago

In your video: "This is a real app, and these are real users." What does that even mean? "Real users" in this case means you downloaded a copy of the app onto their phone, before you started directing the actors?

jdmaresco 10y ago
All of the people in the video who are using the app and responding to the alert are actual users who have been actively participating in our beta in New York City.

dsl 10y ago

How are you getting live access to 911 calls? Or are you just showing crimes reported by other users?

cypherpunks01 10y ago
The video appears to imply that the app has operators that are transcribing police scanner activity into app reports, I don't believe there is any non-public info being accessed or govt partnership here or else I would think it would be advertised. Can someone confirm if this implication is correct? I always had the idea that more and more NYC police radios are being trunked and encrypted in ways that the public can no longer access, does anyone know if this is the case?
- JshWright 10y ago
  I don't know about NYC specifically, but that is generally the case across the country (I'm a paramedic and ham radio operator).

sctb 10y ago

We've updated the link to this from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/vigilante-crime-awareness/id1039889567?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/vigilante-crime-awareness/id....