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Perhaps not the biggest reason behind the refusal but the fact that it is mentioned warrants discussion. Che Guevara is said to have travelled to the Congo to t

Perhaps not the biggest reason behind the refusal but the fact that it is mentioned warrants discussion. Che Guevara is said to have travelled to the Congo to train Guerrilla militia there and stopped when instead of focussing on training, the people focused on voodoo magic to protect them. A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided by a witchdoctor would make them invisible. The best approach to such situations is, as the organisation is following, to educate the people. It might be hard with low literacy levels but it's possible, especially for a cash studded organisation such as theirs. edit: Fixed Gorilla to Guerrilla

jomamaxx 10y ago
"to educate the people" It's not 'reading and arithmetic' that's the problem. It's a basic lack of intelligent social organization across the board. It's the thousand little bits of behaviour that make you 'civilized' vis-a-vis other cultures. I'm weary of the using the word 'civilized' because it sounds a little colonialist, but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues. And it goes far, far beyond magic spells. People totally lack an understanding of human nature when they address these issues. 'Inequality' is not the problem in Africa. Africa has ample natural resources, if they acted in an intelligent and organized manner, there's no reason they couldn't be as rich as anywhere else. It's a million little things summarized in a very clumsy way by the word 'ethnicity' or 'culture'. Again - trying to avoid a completely condescending perspective, but the only measuring stick we have for our degree of civilization is ourselves.
- efaref 10y ago
  You know things are crazy when "civilization" becomes a dirty word.
  - x1798DE 10y ago
    I don't know if GP meant civilization was a dirty word, just that it's an overloaded term, because it at least partially means, "ordered society" and partly it means "society ordered like ours". In this context, taking it to mean the second meaning could be incredibly arrogant, so I think it's reasonable to be careful about one's meaning.
- vacri 10y ago
  > but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues. All across Europe and North America (especially the US), people regularly turn to magic spells (praying). These are the places that us westerners think of as the primary 'civilised' societies, but 'magic' is commonplace there as well.
  - Ar-Curunir 10y ago
    There's a difference between relying on prayers for everything and relying on prayers as something extra that can only help.
    - ChoHag 10y ago
      Oh I love a good delusion. They're so warm and fuzzy.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    "All across Europe and North America (especially the US), people regularly turn to magic spells (praying). " This is a false equivalence - clearly you do not understand what religion is. There is no North American who would not accept a lottery winning for fear of 'Black Magic' and would 'pray to win the lottery' as well. Praying is giving hope, or meditating. Very few people literally believe in prayers. If you kids cannot grasp how backwards Africa is, you need to visit yourselves.
    - vacri 10y ago
      Thanks for the No True Scotsman. No, there is no North American who would refuse lottery winnings because of black magic because both lotteries are ingrained in the culture; and you have to voluntarily opt-in to a lottery in the first place. Plenty of North Americans would refuse free money from a foreign company with unclear or suspicious motives. There are, however, droves of North Americans who thing that things like homosexuality is an abomination against god. Or who think that babies are sinful before they draw their first breath, and have to be splashed with water or they'll burn forever in hell (baptism is another magic spell). There are places in the US where you are barred from office if you don't have a religion, which suggests that it's a bit more than merely 'giving hope'. Also, have you never seen footage of the crazy shit that goes on at faith healing events, or heard of people so wrapped up in their religion that they impoverish themselves in fervor? Sometimes these people do so in the hopes of curing ailments that actual medicine would have worked for. I remember talking to someone who used to be into that stuff, and she said that when it failed to heal you, their excuse was that 'you didn't pray hard enough', which of course just made you feel worse.
- jacobolus 10y ago
  > when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues. People do this plenty in the USA. Alternative medicine, homeopathy, crystals, religion, fad diets, self-help programs, ... The purveyors of “magic spells” I know in southern Mexico are also (1) incredibly careful and well trained observers of the human body, better than many western doctors, though obviously with differing gaps in their knowledge (2) experts in cures made from plants or other local materials, far beyond the knowledge of western doctors who just write prescriptions for pre-made drugs, (3) amazing storytellers, with deep knowledge of oral history/mythology, who bring hope and comfort. You know what else we have in the USA, just like everywhere else in the world? Fraud, corruption, violence, child abuse, infidelity, broken relationships, drug abuse, misallocation of resources, propaganda, etc. etc. Often our authority figures and institutions (police, doctors, social workers, clergy, teachers, government officials, newspapers, ...) can cause just as many problems as the quackiest witch-doctor.
- internaut 10y ago
  I support this position, it is just not a very popular one with today's political thinking. It is evident that different societies have different rates of things like social cohesion, trust, violence and about a million other variables. There are some societies that have managed to emulate the success of Europeans, such as the Japanese and Chinese, so we know it is possible, that is the good news. The bad news is that there is no evidence Africa is attempting a similar feat. That is the fact and it is as plain as day. Think of the enormity of it. The richest people (Euros) trade with the East Asians across a terrific distance by land or sea. All those ships bypass Africa. It is incredible.
  - ntaenta 10y ago
    > It is evident that different societies have different rates of things like social cohesion, trust, violence and about a million other variables. Of course... > There are some societies that have managed to emulate the success of Europeans, such as the Japanese and Chinese, so we know it is possible, that is the good news. Many culturally and technologically sophisticated societies existed in the ancient world outside of Europe -- in Asia, the Americas, and yes, Africa too. I have neither the time nor knowledge to list them all, but perhaps you should start by checking out what was happening in Egypt, China, Central America, and India long before golden age of European antiquity. > The bad news is that there is no evidence Africa is attempting a similar feat. That is the fact and it is as plain as day. Nairobi, Lagos, Luanda, Dar es Salaam, Addis Ababa, Cairo, Dakar, Harare, Kigali, Abidjan... https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/da/de/46/nairobi.jpg https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/da/de/46/... http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/lg/public/2016/03/10/busy-lagos-street..jpg http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/lg... http://imgs.sapo.pt/gfx/fc/67/591570.jpg http://imgs.sapo.pt/gfx/fc/67/591570.jpg https://afktravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/dar-es-salaam-aerial.jpg https://afktravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/dar-es-sala... http://paradiseintheworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/addis-ababa-city.jpg http://paradiseintheworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/add... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/View_from_Cairo_Tower_31march2007.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/View_fro... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Dakar-Ind%C3%A9pendance.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Dakar-In... http://www.bradtguides.com/media/wysiwyg/destinations/africa/zimbabwe/harare2_zimbabwe.jpg http://www.bradtguides.com/media/wysiwyg/destinations/africa... https://jaredmworley.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/p1070303.jpg https://jaredmworley.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/p1070303.jp... http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/66636928.jpg http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/66636928.jpg > Think of the enormity of it. The richest people (Euros) trade with the East Asians across a terrific distance by land or sea. All those ships bypass Africa. It is incredible. What is incredible is how ignorant you are. The images above clearly demonstrate that trade is happening in Africa, though however I don't think trade is a meaningful measure of societal "success" in the first place.
gotofritz 10y ago
> train gorilla militia that's a hell of a freudian slip...
babuskov 10y ago
> travelled to the Congo to train gorilla militia I'm sure there are many gorillas in Congo, but I doubt he was there to train a gorilla militia. Guerilla, perhaps?
- hacksonx 10y ago
  Fixed. Thanks.
gioele 10y ago
> A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided by a witchdoctor would make them invisible. The US market for homeopathic products was $6.4 billion in 2013: http://www.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2013/September2013/Homeopathic-Products-A-Growing-Segment-in-OTC http://www.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2013/Septemb... In Italy, post-earthquake survivors are being provided homeopathic products: http://www.ilpost.it/2016/08/27/regione-marche-terremoto-omeopatia/ http://www.ilpost.it/2016/08/27/regione-marche-terremoto-ome... Credulous people are everywhere.
- zdkl 10y ago
  Surely you understand the difference between middle class people taking some sugar and people believing unwaveringly that herbs will protect them from that shotgun.
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    > Surely you understand the difference between middle class people taking some sugar and people believing unwaveringly that herbs will protect them from that shotgun. I don't understand it; please spell it out for me because all I see is magical thinking. If you think homeopathy isn't a matter of life and death, you might have not considered the people whose lives could have been saved had they turned to real medicine.
    - norswap 10y ago
      I don't believe in homeopathy, however I highly doubt it's being used in matters of life and death in any way that has the slightest veneer of respectability. It may exist, I suspect, but only peddled by shady online gurus.
      - __s 10y ago
        Dr Oz
      - 10y ago
welder 10y ago
Seems your info is wrong. The invisible herb was just a myth among news outlets [1]. 1. https://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/south-africa-marikana/ https://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/south-africa-marikana/

jomamaxx 10y ago

"to educate the people" It's not 'reading and arithmetic' that's the problem. It's a basic lack of intelligent social organization across the board. It's the thousand little bits of behaviour that make you 'civilized' vis-a-vis other cultures. I'm weary of the using the word 'civilized' because it sounds a little colonialist, but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues. And it goes far, far beyond magic spells. People totally lack an understanding of human nature when they address these issues. 'Inequality' is not the problem in Africa. Africa has ample natural resources, if they acted in an intelligent and organized manner, there's no reason they couldn't be as rich as anywhere else. It's a million little things summarized in a very clumsy way by the word 'ethnicity' or 'culture'. Again - trying to avoid a completely condescending perspective, but the only measuring stick we have for our degree of civilization is ourselves.

efaref 10y ago
You know things are crazy when "civilization" becomes a dirty word.
- x1798DE 10y ago
  I don't know if GP meant civilization was a dirty word, just that it's an overloaded term, because it at least partially means, "ordered society" and partly it means "society ordered like ours". In this context, taking it to mean the second meaning could be incredibly arrogant, so I think it's reasonable to be careful about one's meaning.
vacri 10y ago
> but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues. All across Europe and North America (especially the US), people regularly turn to magic spells (praying). These are the places that us westerners think of as the primary 'civilised' societies, but 'magic' is commonplace there as well.
- Ar-Curunir 10y ago
  There's a difference between relying on prayers for everything and relying on prayers as something extra that can only help.
  - ChoHag 10y ago
    Oh I love a good delusion. They're so warm and fuzzy.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  "All across Europe and North America (especially the US), people regularly turn to magic spells (praying). " This is a false equivalence - clearly you do not understand what religion is. There is no North American who would not accept a lottery winning for fear of 'Black Magic' and would 'pray to win the lottery' as well. Praying is giving hope, or meditating. Very few people literally believe in prayers. If you kids cannot grasp how backwards Africa is, you need to visit yourselves.
  - vacri 10y ago
    Thanks for the No True Scotsman. No, there is no North American who would refuse lottery winnings because of black magic because both lotteries are ingrained in the culture; and you have to voluntarily opt-in to a lottery in the first place. Plenty of North Americans would refuse free money from a foreign company with unclear or suspicious motives. There are, however, droves of North Americans who thing that things like homosexuality is an abomination against god. Or who think that babies are sinful before they draw their first breath, and have to be splashed with water or they'll burn forever in hell (baptism is another magic spell). There are places in the US where you are barred from office if you don't have a religion, which suggests that it's a bit more than merely 'giving hope'. Also, have you never seen footage of the crazy shit that goes on at faith healing events, or heard of people so wrapped up in their religion that they impoverish themselves in fervor? Sometimes these people do so in the hopes of curing ailments that actual medicine would have worked for. I remember talking to someone who used to be into that stuff, and she said that when it failed to heal you, their excuse was that 'you didn't pray hard enough', which of course just made you feel worse.
jacobolus 10y ago
> when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues. People do this plenty in the USA. Alternative medicine, homeopathy, crystals, religion, fad diets, self-help programs, ... The purveyors of “magic spells” I know in southern Mexico are also (1) incredibly careful and well trained observers of the human body, better than many western doctors, though obviously with differing gaps in their knowledge (2) experts in cures made from plants or other local materials, far beyond the knowledge of western doctors who just write prescriptions for pre-made drugs, (3) amazing storytellers, with deep knowledge of oral history/mythology, who bring hope and comfort. You know what else we have in the USA, just like everywhere else in the world? Fraud, corruption, violence, child abuse, infidelity, broken relationships, drug abuse, misallocation of resources, propaganda, etc. etc. Often our authority figures and institutions (police, doctors, social workers, clergy, teachers, government officials, newspapers, ...) can cause just as many problems as the quackiest witch-doctor.
internaut 10y ago
I support this position, it is just not a very popular one with today's political thinking. It is evident that different societies have different rates of things like social cohesion, trust, violence and about a million other variables. There are some societies that have managed to emulate the success of Europeans, such as the Japanese and Chinese, so we know it is possible, that is the good news. The bad news is that there is no evidence Africa is attempting a similar feat. That is the fact and it is as plain as day. Think of the enormity of it. The richest people (Euros) trade with the East Asians across a terrific distance by land or sea. All those ships bypass Africa. It is incredible.
- ntaenta 10y ago
  > It is evident that different societies have different rates of things like social cohesion, trust, violence and about a million other variables. Of course... > There are some societies that have managed to emulate the success of Europeans, such as the Japanese and Chinese, so we know it is possible, that is the good news. Many culturally and technologically sophisticated societies existed in the ancient world outside of Europe -- in Asia, the Americas, and yes, Africa too. I have neither the time nor knowledge to list them all, but perhaps you should start by checking out what was happening in Egypt, China, Central America, and India long before golden age of European antiquity. > The bad news is that there is no evidence Africa is attempting a similar feat. That is the fact and it is as plain as day. Nairobi, Lagos, Luanda, Dar es Salaam, Addis Ababa, Cairo, Dakar, Harare, Kigali, Abidjan... https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/da/de/46/nairobi.jpg https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/da/de/46/... http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/lg/public/2016/03/10/busy-lagos-street..jpg http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/lg... http://imgs.sapo.pt/gfx/fc/67/591570.jpg http://imgs.sapo.pt/gfx/fc/67/591570.jpg https://afktravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/dar-es-salaam-aerial.jpg https://afktravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/dar-es-sala... http://paradiseintheworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/addis-ababa-city.jpg http://paradiseintheworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/add... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/View_from_Cairo_Tower_31march2007.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/View_fro... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Dakar-Ind%C3%A9pendance.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Dakar-In... http://www.bradtguides.com/media/wysiwyg/destinations/africa/zimbabwe/harare2_zimbabwe.jpg http://www.bradtguides.com/media/wysiwyg/destinations/africa... https://jaredmworley.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/p1070303.jpg https://jaredmworley.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/p1070303.jp... http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/66636928.jpg http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/66636928.jpg > Think of the enormity of it. The richest people (Euros) trade with the East Asians across a terrific distance by land or sea. All those ships bypass Africa. It is incredible. What is incredible is how ignorant you are. The images above clearly demonstrate that trade is happening in Africa, though however I don't think trade is a meaningful measure of societal "success" in the first place.

gotofritz 10y ago

> train gorilla militia that's a hell of a freudian slip...

babuskov 10y ago

> travelled to the Congo to train gorilla militia I'm sure there are many gorillas in Congo, but I doubt he was there to train a gorilla militia. Guerilla, perhaps?

hacksonx 10y ago
Fixed. Thanks.

gioele 10y ago

> A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided by a witchdoctor would make them invisible. The US market for homeopathic products was $6.4 billion in 2013: http://www.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2013/September2013/Homeopathic-Products-A-Growing-Segment-in-OTC http://www.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2013/Septemb... In Italy, post-earthquake survivors are being provided homeopathic products: http://www.ilpost.it/2016/08/27/regione-marche-terremoto-omeopatia/ http://www.ilpost.it/2016/08/27/regione-marche-terremoto-ome... Credulous people are everywhere.

zdkl 10y ago
Surely you understand the difference between middle class people taking some sugar and people believing unwaveringly that herbs will protect them from that shotgun.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > Surely you understand the difference between middle class people taking some sugar and people believing unwaveringly that herbs will protect them from that shotgun. I don't understand it; please spell it out for me because all I see is magical thinking. If you think homeopathy isn't a matter of life and death, you might have not considered the people whose lives could have been saved had they turned to real medicine.
  - norswap 10y ago
    I don't believe in homeopathy, however I highly doubt it's being used in matters of life and death in any way that has the slightest veneer of respectability. It may exist, I suspect, but only peddled by shady online gurus.
    - __s 10y ago
      Dr Oz
    - 10y ago

welder 10y ago

Seems your info is wrong. The invisible herb was just a myth among news outlets [1]. 1. https://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/south-africa-marikana/ https://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/south-africa-marikana/