7 ms·

I was recently reading an article about James Watt, and his steam engine. It's a remarkable story. I'm reasonably intelligent, but I'm pretty sure that even if

I was recently reading an article about James Watt, and his steam engine. It's a remarkable story. I'm reasonably intelligent, but I'm pretty sure that even if I was given his tools and his blueprints, I would never be able to construct an actual working steam engine (input burning coal, output rotating shaft). This got me thinking about how in India (I'm Indian), we don't have any of the older technology. We don't actually know how to construct a steam engine, or an internal combustion engine, or an electrical engine from scratch. All the key components are imported from Japan, or Germany or the U.S. As a child, my little toys with electrical or gas motors (RC airplanes) in them were all imported. I think there's a lot of focus on software because it's actually easier to tinker with. All one needs is a PC and internet. I suspect there are lots of mechanically inclined Indians who would love to work on motors, engines, stuff that makes shafts rotate. But we simply don't have the basic tools and infrastructure to tinker with those. I guess what I'm saying here is that while it's very good that there's more internet infrastructure being laid out in India. I wish someone like the Ambanis would lay out infrastructure that could allow for tinkering with older technology as well.

devnonymous 10y ago
erm, just because you didn't bother looking doesn't mean the 'tools and infrastructure' don't exist in India. There are a shitton of Makers in India. Yes, Indians prefer the more thinking sciences like math and computer science but saying that's because we 'simply don't have the basic tools and infrastructure to tinker' is ridiculous. All that said, I am assuming the only thread to connect this conversation with the article was that of net connectivity ?
- hackaflocka 10y ago
  You're probably one of those who also insists that India has the best teachers. Why I can't find any of their lectures on YouTube (but find a "shitton" of lectures from non-Indians) is interesting. You also probably believe India has the most powerful supercomputer and the best space program (for its budget). I'm more interested in the masses of Indians not having to shit on the street outside where they live, and having access to clean drinking water and refrigerators. Also, could you name some Indian makers who can create a steam engine, or internal combustion engine, or electrical engine from scratch? Or any that have innovated in that sphere? OK, I'll make it easy for you. Can you name a single invention at any of the IITs in their entire history, an invention that is used by the rest of the world? Also, you don't get to decide what I can post on here in which thread. HN has moderators for that purpose. And if they want, they can let me know.
  - wtmt 10y ago
    > could you name some Indian makers who can create a steam engine, or internal combustion engine, or electrical engine from scratch? Or any that have innovated in that sphere? You seem to be focusing too much on anger and condescension here. I'll stop with one answer for your question above. You can derive your own conclusions - G.D.Naidu. [1] I'm sure there are at least several more that can be found by searching online. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopalswamy_Doraiswamy_Naidu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopalswamy_Doraiswamy_Naidu
    - hackaflocka 10y ago
      His motor used parts that were pre-built abroad. He himself admitted that there was nothing original about his design, that he used existing blueprints to build it.
      - mohanmcgeek 10y ago
        Now, you're not planning on designing your own chip, your ISA, your OS, your toolchain and your applications. are you?
  - devnonymous 10y ago
    > You're probably one of those who also insists that India has the best teachers. No, I'm not ^one of those^ (whatever that's supposed to imply). I think our education system is a mess and I also cannot claim to be 'well educated' in any kind of academic sense. > You also probably believe India has the most powerful supercomputer > and the best space program (for its budget). Don't know about the supercomputer but as far as a space program is concerned, as a matter of fact, yes indeed I do -- for its budget, ISRO is has an amazing track record by any measure. So, it's not so much of a belief than a fact. > I'm more interested in the masses of Indians not having to shit on the street > outside where they live, and having access to clean drinking water and > refrigerators. wait, what, I, wait, ...what ? Seriously ? Yes, dear fellow Indian, the majority of us are also concerned about those matters as well, but what you declare so passionately is so completely orthogonal to the context ! Well, I shall yet attempt to bring the conversation back on track by saying that inventions tend to be created to solve local problems and that's why we possibly don't have a whole lot of innovation happening that is used by the rest of the world but we surely have guys like these: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26260978 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26260978 > Also, could you name some Indian makers who can create a steam engine, or > internal combustion engine, or electrical engine from scratch? Or any that > have innovated in that sphere? OK, I'll make it easy for you. Can you name a > single invention at any of the IITs in their entire history, an invention that > is used by the rest of the world? I'll do better than that. I'll teach you how to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_discoveries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_... Of course, going by previous similar conversations with others who would look at ^India^ only from the limited perspective of their immediate and personal experiences, I assume that's not going to convince you. In anycase, I'll leave you with a few passing thoughts (and that's all I'll intend on engaging further): a. The reasons for lack of 'world famous' innovation extends beyond lack of tools and infrastructure. The hierarchy of needs or social attitudes towards failure play important roles as well. b. Despite that there is a community of people who do enjoy to tinker and build stuff. Just for the heck of it. Not with the intent of making something that would be 'used by the rest of the world' but to solve local problems. Most of these do not make it big. They are inventions nonetheless c. Often times these people end up leaving India to go settle abroad. And finally yes, here is where the lack of resources and infrastructure tend to weigh in on the decision. d. About this: > HN has moderators for that purpose No it doesn't. At least not in the reddit sense. No, they don't 'let you know'. HN is largely community moderated. Have a good time here, cheers !
JetSetWilly 10y ago
Most western countries are the same. I live in Scotland, and quite near where James Watt was born. That doesn't mean that I grew up around steam engines, or that I have been exposed to steam engines through my life. Like most places, the interconnectedness of global trade, plus the sheer complexity of modern devices, means that most people have no exposure to manufacturing. At one time, the town where I live was a full of Victorian manufacturing, with factories clogging up every street. Few of those factories survive today. Both my grandfathers worked in a local factory, which manufactured ball bearings and other machined items. In their time, it employed a couple thousand people on a huge site. Today, the company still exists, and still manufactures products, but with far far fewer people (well less than 100 I think). So the general population's exposure to manufacturing is far lower, as even where factories still exist far far less labour is required so that general cultural exposure is low.
- hackaflocka 10y ago
  Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I really think we're losing something by not having this kind of knowledge more evenly spread out in the population. There was a time when my near-ancestors could all stitch up a wound or re-set a bone. Such first-aid was a necessary skill. That too is missing in the population today.

devnonymous 10y ago

erm, just because you didn't bother looking doesn't mean the 'tools and infrastructure' don't exist in India. There are a shitton of Makers in India. Yes, Indians prefer the more thinking sciences like math and computer science but saying that's because we 'simply don't have the basic tools and infrastructure to tinker' is ridiculous. All that said, I am assuming the only thread to connect this conversation with the article was that of net connectivity ?

hackaflocka 10y ago
You're probably one of those who also insists that India has the best teachers. Why I can't find any of their lectures on YouTube (but find a "shitton" of lectures from non-Indians) is interesting. You also probably believe India has the most powerful supercomputer and the best space program (for its budget). I'm more interested in the masses of Indians not having to shit on the street outside where they live, and having access to clean drinking water and refrigerators. Also, could you name some Indian makers who can create a steam engine, or internal combustion engine, or electrical engine from scratch? Or any that have innovated in that sphere? OK, I'll make it easy for you. Can you name a single invention at any of the IITs in their entire history, an invention that is used by the rest of the world? Also, you don't get to decide what I can post on here in which thread. HN has moderators for that purpose. And if they want, they can let me know.
- wtmt 10y ago
  > could you name some Indian makers who can create a steam engine, or internal combustion engine, or electrical engine from scratch? Or any that have innovated in that sphere? You seem to be focusing too much on anger and condescension here. I'll stop with one answer for your question above. You can derive your own conclusions - G.D.Naidu. [1] I'm sure there are at least several more that can be found by searching online. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopalswamy_Doraiswamy_Naidu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopalswamy_Doraiswamy_Naidu
  - hackaflocka 10y ago
    His motor used parts that were pre-built abroad. He himself admitted that there was nothing original about his design, that he used existing blueprints to build it.
    - mohanmcgeek 10y ago
      Now, you're not planning on designing your own chip, your ISA, your OS, your toolchain and your applications. are you?
- devnonymous 10y ago
  > You're probably one of those who also insists that India has the best teachers. No, I'm not ^one of those^ (whatever that's supposed to imply). I think our education system is a mess and I also cannot claim to be 'well educated' in any kind of academic sense. > You also probably believe India has the most powerful supercomputer > and the best space program (for its budget). Don't know about the supercomputer but as far as a space program is concerned, as a matter of fact, yes indeed I do -- for its budget, ISRO is has an amazing track record by any measure. So, it's not so much of a belief than a fact. > I'm more interested in the masses of Indians not having to shit on the street > outside where they live, and having access to clean drinking water and > refrigerators. wait, what, I, wait, ...what ? Seriously ? Yes, dear fellow Indian, the majority of us are also concerned about those matters as well, but what you declare so passionately is so completely orthogonal to the context ! Well, I shall yet attempt to bring the conversation back on track by saying that inventions tend to be created to solve local problems and that's why we possibly don't have a whole lot of innovation happening that is used by the rest of the world but we surely have guys like these: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26260978 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26260978 > Also, could you name some Indian makers who can create a steam engine, or > internal combustion engine, or electrical engine from scratch? Or any that > have innovated in that sphere? OK, I'll make it easy for you. Can you name a > single invention at any of the IITs in their entire history, an invention that > is used by the rest of the world? I'll do better than that. I'll teach you how to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_discoveries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_... Of course, going by previous similar conversations with others who would look at ^India^ only from the limited perspective of their immediate and personal experiences, I assume that's not going to convince you. In anycase, I'll leave you with a few passing thoughts (and that's all I'll intend on engaging further): a. The reasons for lack of 'world famous' innovation extends beyond lack of tools and infrastructure. The hierarchy of needs or social attitudes towards failure play important roles as well. b. Despite that there is a community of people who do enjoy to tinker and build stuff. Just for the heck of it. Not with the intent of making something that would be 'used by the rest of the world' but to solve local problems. Most of these do not make it big. They are inventions nonetheless c. Often times these people end up leaving India to go settle abroad. And finally yes, here is where the lack of resources and infrastructure tend to weigh in on the decision. d. About this: > HN has moderators for that purpose No it doesn't. At least not in the reddit sense. No, they don't 'let you know'. HN is largely community moderated. Have a good time here, cheers !

JetSetWilly 10y ago

Most western countries are the same. I live in Scotland, and quite near where James Watt was born. That doesn't mean that I grew up around steam engines, or that I have been exposed to steam engines through my life. Like most places, the interconnectedness of global trade, plus the sheer complexity of modern devices, means that most people have no exposure to manufacturing. At one time, the town where I live was a full of Victorian manufacturing, with factories clogging up every street. Few of those factories survive today. Both my grandfathers worked in a local factory, which manufactured ball bearings and other machined items. In their time, it employed a couple thousand people on a huge site. Today, the company still exists, and still manufactures products, but with far far fewer people (well less than 100 I think). So the general population's exposure to manufacturing is far lower, as even where factories still exist far far less labour is required so that general cultural exposure is low.

hackaflocka 10y ago
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I really think we're losing something by not having this kind of knowledge more evenly spread out in the population. There was a time when my near-ancestors could all stitch up a wound or re-set a bone. Such first-aid was a necessary skill. That too is missing in the population today.