7 ms·

While I don't doubt the psychological benefits of ayahuasca (or any hallucinogenic), the language of many of those advocating in the article set off red flags.

While I don't doubt the psychological benefits of ayahuasca (or any hallucinogenic), the language of many of those advocating in the article set off red flags. "Format your harddrive", reminds of Arch Oboler's "Society of the Cosmos", something dreamed up by Evangelical hucksters who didn't see a future in peddling Jesus so they turned to techno speak to wring out the marks. "We manifest abundance wherever we go," sounds even worse. That's the kind of reason Dominionist give when trying to dodge their car taxes. What did Hunter Thompson say about the seekers who tried to buy enlightenment by the dose? Instead the real benefit is trying to rationally understand their experience. "Wait, was there a giant hand with my dad's watch on it's wrist crushing the room? Damn, I didn't realize I was letting that take over my life." Without that personal insight you are just dealing with pseudo-spiritual abstractions.

oldmanjay 10y ago
I feel like the sheer amount of bullshit surrounding these drugs leaves me with a duty to take heavy doses of psychedelics and proudly learn nothing but "boy that was fun"
- cnp 10y ago
  Or "boy was I wrong -- wow"
- fragola 10y ago
  Agreed on the bullshit. I think this might have something to do with me growing up in a certain hippy town on the California coast, but I couldn't get through this article without a lot of eye-rolling. OK, let's just put the whole drug thing aside and call it a hobby. You can have a hobby without having a pseudospiritual and vaguely appropriative justification for it. Bodybuilders have a term that they use to describe the mythos that has evolved in their subculture regarding steroids and supplements: Broscience. This is the yuppie drug-dabbler equivalent.
  - stinkytaco 10y ago
    Offtopic, but unfortunately broscience has extended beyond pharmaceuticals to training practice. This kind of thinking dominates the crossfit world with terms like "muscle confusion" and "failure". It's sad because I got into crossfit ten years ago because it was fun, something different every day kept me coming back. I didn't want to be a Navy SEAL, just to keep active, but the almost religious adherence to the training philosophy -- and the injuries sustained by several people I knew -- drove me away. Now I find myself sedentary and looking for something similar, but less pseudo-scientific.
    - fragola 10y ago
      I am similarly put off by yoga, which as practiced currently is not an "ancient tradition" but a bizarre relic of 19th century Indian nationalism[0] Some people find the woo motivating, but I find it to be a distraction. I want my exercise regimen woo-free, thank you very much. [0]http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-385e-808f-c9c7c38d1cb7 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-...
      - stinkytaco 10y ago
        I would actually argue that yoga is now sufficiently commercialized as to bear little resemblance to anything "ancient" or "mystical". I can buy a book, get some videos or take a class and hear nothing spiritual at all. (Side note: Mark Lauren, in his fairly good _You Are Your Own Gym_ covers yoga a bit). This isn't to say there's not lots of people selling the "spiritual enlightenment" line. I think all exercise programs tend to have a something to sell, because otherwise how do you make money? It's an interesting balancing act, however. Your doctor can tell you "get more exercise", but that's a pretty abstract concept that requires planning, commitment and is by definition kind of uncomfortable. So a whole industry has grown up around branding exercise. It works, too. Some of it is better than others, but people, myself included, buy it. We might buy it because we're gullible, we might buy it because it's easier than coming up with our own plan or more interesting when executing it. But the number of books that grace the shelves with words like "warrior", "ultimate", "prescription", "philosophy", "enlightenment", "Spartan", "SEAL", etc, etc, etc. is pretty staggering. But frankly, whatever works. Insurance companies often incentivize gym memberships, but rarely do they pay for you to regularly see a trainer, so whatever is safe that gets people exercising. I complain, but it's not even in the same league of problematic as unregulated administration of pharmaceuticals by spiritual leaders.
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  Exactly. We don't need to take psychedelics with the intention to get smarter or enlightened. We can take psychedelics just to enjoy psychedelics. This is a good enough reason.
  - steauengeglase 10y ago
    That's a valid reason. So is "I wanna knock some of the BS in my head loose". I may be close minded, but "To receive the essence of Grandmother's wisdom and understand the psychic vibrations, not within us, but beside us, as I'm guided by the Jaguar riding the Anaconda, who is really the glory beyond our lesser selves, being to us a more perfect realm as Grandmother wishes it through the greater understanding of our abundant vision..." doesn't really sound like a reason. Not that I'd stop someone from doing it for that reason, but I fail to see how it's the least bit useful and it seems ripe for exploitation.
- lsd_throwaway 10y ago
  There's a lot of bullshit - and most people are drawn in by pseudoscience nonsense. I was interested in seeing what people were talking about and the perspective change (also Sam Harris, lots of historical people, Huxley, What the Dormouse Said, everything I'd read etc.) I tried it basically with as most preparation as you could possibly have and it wasn't enough. There's more detail in my posting history, but I'd suggest caution.
- empath75 10y ago
  Yeah, there is a lot of bullshit around psychedelics, and it's totally possible to take them and just have fun, but if you're interested in the way the mind works and how we piece together reality from our perceptions, there is a lot to work with there. I think where people go wrong is in thinking that drug experiences show you some truth that's hidden from you in normal life. It really just shows you how ill equipped your brain is to understand reality, or how ill-conceived the idea of 'reality' really is.
  - Fraterkes 10y ago
    I think the idea of seeing some hidden truth, comes simply from seeing the world from some other perspective. I guess the problem people have with that is that people who take drugs talk like their epiphanies are only obtainable by doing drugs (and thus unique and rare). When instead drugs are more tools to find out things you personally didn't know.
    - vbhavsar 10y ago
      Very well said.
Kroniker 10y ago
One of my favorite Terrence McKenna quotes: "Once you've gotten the message, hang up the phone." Hallucinogens may deliver you the message, but you need to know to take it once you have it, and not go crazy taking more and more. I have a friend who fell down that rabbit hole. Doesn't seem to end well.
- civilian 10y ago
  I agree. I got the message, and hung up the phone. My friend is also have difficulty leaving the path. A couple of months ago my buddy & I got some urgent texts from him-- he had taken a really large dose of LSD and ended up spending the next 12 hours in a emergency room's psych ward. I think that part of the reason that we have this B.S. propaganda around psychedelics (i.e. "They're the key to enlightenment!") is that it can be pretty hard to encourage people to try drugs. And while they aren't the key to enlightenment, they are just such a _different_ experience that it can be... interesting, or help personal growth, in some lesser but still substantial ways. But that's not a great soundbite. Marketing is much harder than we give it credit for. //edit although on further googling, I think the quote is from Alan Watts and it's about sober meditation after a trip. > "Psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..."
  - NotSammyHagar 10y ago
    > it can be pretty hard to encourage people to try drugs I think that in our society we have a problem with people taking too many drugs already. Deadly smoking of tobacco is decreasing but still too common (killed my mom). Booze and coffee are things people tolerate but use to adjust their mood. Pot seems to finally becoming accepted by law abiding society. But do we need to encourage more than this? As a parent of a teenager who is generally tolerant of such things, I'm suddenly feeling I want society to have less drugs ;-) Seriously, would society be improved with more psychedelics?
k-mcgrady 10y ago
Is this the Hunter Thompson quote you're referring to? “We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.”
- steauengeglase 10y ago
  Yep. It's been a while since I read that.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  leave to Hunter S. Thompson of all people to throw a little __sobriety__ into the conversation. Somebody had to say it and he said it well.
  - scrame 10y ago
    Well, not "of all people". Hunter S. Thompson has that reputation from younger people as "crazy guy who did lots of drugs". That was part of it, but his reputation came from his writing and journalism. He created a new, influential style of gonzo journalism[1] where he was openly opinionated and wrote with emotional attachment, and certainly some exaggeration. That he's remembered as "crazy guy on drugs" instead of "great writer" or "trenchant journalist" shows very well the pop culture drift that happens with public figures. Thompson was a standout writer with a brilliant critical eye towards society and found much of it disagreeable. That he found a way to relate that to his contemporary generation is shown by his body of work. That he's remembered as a "drug guy", so a critique of Timothy Leary is surprising is ... too bad. Check out "Hell's Angels" or "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72", if you've got the time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

oldmanjay 10y ago

I feel like the sheer amount of bullshit surrounding these drugs leaves me with a duty to take heavy doses of psychedelics and proudly learn nothing but "boy that was fun"

cnp 10y ago
Or "boy was I wrong -- wow"
fragola 10y ago
Agreed on the bullshit. I think this might have something to do with me growing up in a certain hippy town on the California coast, but I couldn't get through this article without a lot of eye-rolling. OK, let's just put the whole drug thing aside and call it a hobby. You can have a hobby without having a pseudospiritual and vaguely appropriative justification for it. Bodybuilders have a term that they use to describe the mythos that has evolved in their subculture regarding steroids and supplements: Broscience. This is the yuppie drug-dabbler equivalent.
- stinkytaco 10y ago
  Offtopic, but unfortunately broscience has extended beyond pharmaceuticals to training practice. This kind of thinking dominates the crossfit world with terms like "muscle confusion" and "failure". It's sad because I got into crossfit ten years ago because it was fun, something different every day kept me coming back. I didn't want to be a Navy SEAL, just to keep active, but the almost religious adherence to the training philosophy -- and the injuries sustained by several people I knew -- drove me away. Now I find myself sedentary and looking for something similar, but less pseudo-scientific.
  - fragola 10y ago
    I am similarly put off by yoga, which as practiced currently is not an "ancient tradition" but a bizarre relic of 19th century Indian nationalism[0] Some people find the woo motivating, but I find it to be a distraction. I want my exercise regimen woo-free, thank you very much. [0]http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-385e-808f-c9c7c38d1cb7 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-...
    - stinkytaco 10y ago
      I would actually argue that yoga is now sufficiently commercialized as to bear little resemblance to anything "ancient" or "mystical". I can buy a book, get some videos or take a class and hear nothing spiritual at all. (Side note: Mark Lauren, in his fairly good _You Are Your Own Gym_ covers yoga a bit). This isn't to say there's not lots of people selling the "spiritual enlightenment" line. I think all exercise programs tend to have a something to sell, because otherwise how do you make money? It's an interesting balancing act, however. Your doctor can tell you "get more exercise", but that's a pretty abstract concept that requires planning, commitment and is by definition kind of uncomfortable. So a whole industry has grown up around branding exercise. It works, too. Some of it is better than others, but people, myself included, buy it. We might buy it because we're gullible, we might buy it because it's easier than coming up with our own plan or more interesting when executing it. But the number of books that grace the shelves with words like "warrior", "ultimate", "prescription", "philosophy", "enlightenment", "Spartan", "SEAL", etc, etc, etc. is pretty staggering. But frankly, whatever works. Insurance companies often incentivize gym memberships, but rarely do they pay for you to regularly see a trainer, so whatever is safe that gets people exercising. I complain, but it's not even in the same league of problematic as unregulated administration of pharmaceuticals by spiritual leaders.
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
Exactly. We don't need to take psychedelics with the intention to get smarter or enlightened. We can take psychedelics just to enjoy psychedelics. This is a good enough reason.
- steauengeglase 10y ago
  That's a valid reason. So is "I wanna knock some of the BS in my head loose". I may be close minded, but "To receive the essence of Grandmother's wisdom and understand the psychic vibrations, not within us, but beside us, as I'm guided by the Jaguar riding the Anaconda, who is really the glory beyond our lesser selves, being to us a more perfect realm as Grandmother wishes it through the greater understanding of our abundant vision..." doesn't really sound like a reason. Not that I'd stop someone from doing it for that reason, but I fail to see how it's the least bit useful and it seems ripe for exploitation.
lsd_throwaway 10y ago
There's a lot of bullshit - and most people are drawn in by pseudoscience nonsense. I was interested in seeing what people were talking about and the perspective change (also Sam Harris, lots of historical people, Huxley, What the Dormouse Said, everything I'd read etc.) I tried it basically with as most preparation as you could possibly have and it wasn't enough. There's more detail in my posting history, but I'd suggest caution.
empath75 10y ago
Yeah, there is a lot of bullshit around psychedelics, and it's totally possible to take them and just have fun, but if you're interested in the way the mind works and how we piece together reality from our perceptions, there is a lot to work with there. I think where people go wrong is in thinking that drug experiences show you some truth that's hidden from you in normal life. It really just shows you how ill equipped your brain is to understand reality, or how ill-conceived the idea of 'reality' really is.
- Fraterkes 10y ago
  I think the idea of seeing some hidden truth, comes simply from seeing the world from some other perspective. I guess the problem people have with that is that people who take drugs talk like their epiphanies are only obtainable by doing drugs (and thus unique and rare). When instead drugs are more tools to find out things you personally didn't know.
  - vbhavsar 10y ago
    Very well said.

Kroniker 10y ago

One of my favorite Terrence McKenna quotes: "Once you've gotten the message, hang up the phone." Hallucinogens may deliver you the message, but you need to know to take it once you have it, and not go crazy taking more and more. I have a friend who fell down that rabbit hole. Doesn't seem to end well.

civilian 10y ago
I agree. I got the message, and hung up the phone. My friend is also have difficulty leaving the path. A couple of months ago my buddy & I got some urgent texts from him-- he had taken a really large dose of LSD and ended up spending the next 12 hours in a emergency room's psych ward. I think that part of the reason that we have this B.S. propaganda around psychedelics (i.e. "They're the key to enlightenment!") is that it can be pretty hard to encourage people to try drugs. And while they aren't the key to enlightenment, they are just such a _different_ experience that it can be... interesting, or help personal growth, in some lesser but still substantial ways. But that's not a great soundbite. Marketing is much harder than we give it credit for. //edit although on further googling, I think the quote is from Alan Watts and it's about sober meditation after a trip. > "Psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..."
- NotSammyHagar 10y ago
  > it can be pretty hard to encourage people to try drugs I think that in our society we have a problem with people taking too many drugs already. Deadly smoking of tobacco is decreasing but still too common (killed my mom). Booze and coffee are things people tolerate but use to adjust their mood. Pot seems to finally becoming accepted by law abiding society. But do we need to encourage more than this? As a parent of a teenager who is generally tolerant of such things, I'm suddenly feeling I want society to have less drugs ;-) Seriously, would society be improved with more psychedelics?

k-mcgrady 10y ago

Is this the Hunter Thompson quote you're referring to? “We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.”

steauengeglase 10y ago
Yep. It's been a while since I read that.
metaphorm 10y ago
leave to Hunter S. Thompson of all people to throw a little __sobriety__ into the conversation. Somebody had to say it and he said it well.
- scrame 10y ago
  Well, not "of all people". Hunter S. Thompson has that reputation from younger people as "crazy guy who did lots of drugs". That was part of it, but his reputation came from his writing and journalism. He created a new, influential style of gonzo journalism[1] where he was openly opinionated and wrote with emotional attachment, and certainly some exaggeration. That he's remembered as "crazy guy on drugs" instead of "great writer" or "trenchant journalist" shows very well the pop culture drift that happens with public figures. Thompson was a standout writer with a brilliant critical eye towards society and found much of it disagreeable. That he found a way to relate that to his contemporary generation is shown by his body of work. That he's remembered as a "drug guy", so a critique of Timothy Leary is surprising is ... too bad. Check out "Hell's Angels" or "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72", if you've got the time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]