6 ms·

That's because any Trump supporter (be it by privilege or other) seems to be unfazed by Trump's racism and xenophobia. If we elect him, these are policies that

by capote 10y ago

That's because any Trump supporter (be it by privilege or other) seems to be unfazed by Trump's racism and xenophobia. If we elect him, these are policies that will be at risk of being enacted, and this will affect minorities, immigrants, and Muslims. This is a large cost to our society, values, democracy, you name it. In modern times, not caring that the rights of minorities and immigrants will be trampled is rightfully interpreted as being a racist xenophobe. We are trying to collectively move away from these old-fashioned bad ideas, and supporting Trump is backward in this sense.

bdavisx 10y ago
I think some (many? IDK) are not unfazed by the "bad" parts of Trump's message - it's just that they agree so strongly with the "good" parts (whatever they feel is "good") that they are willing to hold their nose and overlook the "bad" parts. Mainly because the status quo on both the Republican and Democratic side supports the economic policies that have been so bad for them.
rayiner 10y ago
> That's because any Trump supporter (be it by privilege or other) seems to be unfazed by Trump's racism and xenophobia. If you say that one cannot morally support Trump because Trump is a racist and xenophobe at heart, would you also say that one cannot support Hilary, because she is a drug warrior and "tough on crime" crusader at heart? (I think the answer is no, because it's reasonable to support a politician without endorsing all of that politician's world views).
- diyorgasms 10y ago
  I think you'd be surprised to find that the answer for many is yes. I for one cannot in good conscience support any politician whose economics are neoliberal and whose social policies are oppressive. I think Trump's xenophobia and Hillary's authoritarian social policies (which also disproportionally negatively affect disadvantaged minority groups) are absolutely immoral and moral people should not support these candidates. I realize that I occupy a position outside of the political mainstream in America, but I suspect that is changing. I expect to see many more people rejecting neoliberal economics as a game rigged against workers by the bourgeoisie.
- capote 10y ago
  No. I don't like Hillary by any means, and I don't like her attitude on drug war and crime and whatever else you wanna cite, but these things are mere political differences, whereas racism and xenophobia are immoral, utterly nauseating, and unamerican.
whamlastxmas 10y ago
>this will affect minorities, immigrants, and Muslims It is possible to support policies that affect these groups without being racist or xenophobic. It's unfortunate that there are groups that will suffer as the result of things like immigration laws, but there are several very strong arguments to support immigration laws. Would we want unlimited, open immigration from Mexico? The vast majority of people would say no, but that's also affecting Mexican and South American people tremendously. Why is there no uproar about xenophobia directed at those people?
basseq 10y ago
See, this is what fascinates me. I don't think it's that Trump supports are "unfazed by his racism and xenophobia". I think it's that they don't see it as racism and xenophobia. After all (playing devil's advocate)... Trump has never mentioned race negatively. Mexican is not a race (it's a country). Muslim is not a race (it's a religion). Trump's comments on immigration, trade, or terrorism doesn't come from a dislike of people from other countries, but a desire to put American citizens first. This might be what you want from an American President. So your "racist xenophobe" is someone else's "nationalist leader". But name-calling tamps down reasonable discourse in all cases. (And Trump is as guilty of this as anyone, but certainly not the sole offender.) Going up to a Trump supporter and saying, "Hi you racist xenophobe, want to have a level-headed discussion on nationalism and human rights?" doesn't work so well. The profoundly negative coverage of Trump is doing as much to explain his success as anything else. It causes people to shut down. And it's not healthy for anyone.
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  I don't mind your tone, but your logic, while more thought out than just blindly calling someone racist/xenophobic, is really just a more verbose talking down to of Trump supporters. "These people believe stupid things, and they won't respond to logic unless you sugar coat it"
  - basseq 10y ago
    Which part? (Seriously.) My point was that there's no one source of truth. Perception is reality. To a vast majority of his supporters, Trump is not a racist xenophobe. Period, full stop. And this isn't stupid: an intelligent, reasonable person could make that argument. And plenty of Trump supporters are intelligent, reasonable people. Did something get lost in translation?
    - oh_sigh 10y ago
      Okay, that's fair. I took your original post to mean something along the lines of "Trump supporters believe something stupid, and when you talk down to them, they just dig into their stupid beliefs. If you would come at them nicely, you would have a better chance of teaching them how stupid their beliefs are"
oh_sigh 10y ago
Okay, I'll bite. I support Trump, and don't see him as racist or xenophobic. I don't see how enforcing laws already on the books regarding legal immigration is racist. If you are a white person from Canada here illegally, you would be subject to the same punishment/deportation as a brown person illegally here form Guatemala. Trump has repeatedly said that immigrants are more than welcome, but they need to come legally. How is that racist?
- killbrad 10y ago
  How about his comments regarding the judge?
  - oh_sigh 10y ago
    Are you suggesting that the judge is a robot and doesn't have any possibility of bias in the case, when his parents(illegal aliens) were exactly the people that Trump claims will be deported? When Sotomayor said that a wise latina woman could come to better conclusions than old white men, was that racist too? What about when Curiel himself admitted that his heritage has influenced his practice of the law in the past[1] (when he was a drug prosecutor in the late 90s) > According to participants on both sides, the Mexicans looked across the table at Mr. Chavez, Mr. Vega and Mr. Curiel, all born of Mexican parents, and the spark of recognition lit a fire. > "It couldn't but help," Mr. Curiel said. "We were working without the disconnect of interpreters and barriers of culture. When it comes down to it, this involves the country of our parents." Mr. Vega, now in private practice, said the simple fact that the meetings were conducted in Spanish "broke the ice." > "It was confianza," he said, the Spanish word for trust. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/26/international/americas/26DRUG.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/26/international/americas/26D...
flubert 10y ago
Is "culturalism" a better term than "racism"? As in, how many people are rejecting people because of their race, and how many are rejecting them because they want to live in the culture of their original homeland? Is "culturalism" just as bad as racism in your mind? Are any cultures more preferable to you than others? Seemingly yes, because you want a xenophilia culture?
louithethrid 10y ago
I ve seen countrys run by those minorities you hold so high- and no, those are not values at all. The trump voters in a muslim country, just dont call there trump trump- they call him husseine, chomeini etc., they vote anti-immigrant (christian/jew) and they vote pro circle with theire feet. (poverty-> overpopulation -> religion -> war -> poverty ) What makes those trump voters from a distance so lovely?

by capote 10y ago

bdavisx 10y ago

I think some (many? IDK) are not unfazed by the "bad" parts of Trump's message - it's just that they agree so strongly with the "good" parts (whatever they feel is "good") that they are willing to hold their nose and overlook the "bad" parts. Mainly because the status quo on both the Republican and Democratic side supports the economic policies that have been so bad for them.

rayiner 10y ago

> That's because any Trump supporter (be it by privilege or other) seems to be unfazed by Trump's racism and xenophobia. If you say that one cannot morally support Trump because Trump is a racist and xenophobe at heart, would you also say that one cannot support Hilary, because she is a drug warrior and "tough on crime" crusader at heart? (I think the answer is no, because it's reasonable to support a politician without endorsing all of that politician's world views).

diyorgasms 10y ago
I think you'd be surprised to find that the answer for many is yes. I for one cannot in good conscience support any politician whose economics are neoliberal and whose social policies are oppressive. I think Trump's xenophobia and Hillary's authoritarian social policies (which also disproportionally negatively affect disadvantaged minority groups) are absolutely immoral and moral people should not support these candidates. I realize that I occupy a position outside of the political mainstream in America, but I suspect that is changing. I expect to see many more people rejecting neoliberal economics as a game rigged against workers by the bourgeoisie.
capote 10y ago
No. I don't like Hillary by any means, and I don't like her attitude on drug war and crime and whatever else you wanna cite, but these things are mere political differences, whereas racism and xenophobia are immoral, utterly nauseating, and unamerican.

whamlastxmas 10y ago

>this will affect minorities, immigrants, and Muslims It is possible to support policies that affect these groups without being racist or xenophobic. It's unfortunate that there are groups that will suffer as the result of things like immigration laws, but there are several very strong arguments to support immigration laws. Would we want unlimited, open immigration from Mexico? The vast majority of people would say no, but that's also affecting Mexican and South American people tremendously. Why is there no uproar about xenophobia directed at those people?

basseq 10y ago

See, this is what fascinates me. I don't think it's that Trump supports are "unfazed by his racism and xenophobia". I think it's that they don't see it as racism and xenophobia. After all (playing devil's advocate)... Trump has never mentioned race negatively. Mexican is not a race (it's a country). Muslim is not a race (it's a religion). Trump's comments on immigration, trade, or terrorism doesn't come from a dislike of people from other countries, but a desire to put American citizens first. This might be what you want from an American President. So your "racist xenophobe" is someone else's "nationalist leader". But name-calling tamps down reasonable discourse in all cases. (And Trump is as guilty of this as anyone, but certainly not the sole offender.) Going up to a Trump supporter and saying, "Hi you racist xenophobe, want to have a level-headed discussion on nationalism and human rights?" doesn't work so well. The profoundly negative coverage of Trump is doing as much to explain his success as anything else. It causes people to shut down. And it's not healthy for anyone.

oh_sigh 10y ago
I don't mind your tone, but your logic, while more thought out than just blindly calling someone racist/xenophobic, is really just a more verbose talking down to of Trump supporters. "These people believe stupid things, and they won't respond to logic unless you sugar coat it"
- basseq 10y ago
  Which part? (Seriously.) My point was that there's no one source of truth. Perception is reality. To a vast majority of his supporters, Trump is not a racist xenophobe. Period, full stop. And this isn't stupid: an intelligent, reasonable person could make that argument. And plenty of Trump supporters are intelligent, reasonable people. Did something get lost in translation?
  - oh_sigh 10y ago
    Okay, that's fair. I took your original post to mean something along the lines of "Trump supporters believe something stupid, and when you talk down to them, they just dig into their stupid beliefs. If you would come at them nicely, you would have a better chance of teaching them how stupid their beliefs are"

oh_sigh 10y ago

Okay, I'll bite. I support Trump, and don't see him as racist or xenophobic. I don't see how enforcing laws already on the books regarding legal immigration is racist. If you are a white person from Canada here illegally, you would be subject to the same punishment/deportation as a brown person illegally here form Guatemala. Trump has repeatedly said that immigrants are more than welcome, but they need to come legally. How is that racist?

killbrad 10y ago
How about his comments regarding the judge?
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  Are you suggesting that the judge is a robot and doesn't have any possibility of bias in the case, when his parents(illegal aliens) were exactly the people that Trump claims will be deported? When Sotomayor said that a wise latina woman could come to better conclusions than old white men, was that racist too? What about when Curiel himself admitted that his heritage has influenced his practice of the law in the past[1] (when he was a drug prosecutor in the late 90s) > According to participants on both sides, the Mexicans looked across the table at Mr. Chavez, Mr. Vega and Mr. Curiel, all born of Mexican parents, and the spark of recognition lit a fire. > "It couldn't but help," Mr. Curiel said. "We were working without the disconnect of interpreters and barriers of culture. When it comes down to it, this involves the country of our parents." Mr. Vega, now in private practice, said the simple fact that the meetings were conducted in Spanish "broke the ice." > "It was confianza," he said, the Spanish word for trust. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/26/international/americas/26DRUG.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/26/international/americas/26D...

flubert 10y ago

Is "culturalism" a better term than "racism"? As in, how many people are rejecting people because of their race, and how many are rejecting them because they want to live in the culture of their original homeland? Is "culturalism" just as bad as racism in your mind? Are any cultures more preferable to you than others? Seemingly yes, because you want a xenophilia culture?

louithethrid 10y ago

I ve seen countrys run by those minorities you hold so high- and no, those are not values at all. The trump voters in a muslim country, just dont call there trump trump- they call him husseine, chomeini etc., they vote anti-immigrant (christian/jew) and they vote pro circle with theire feet. (poverty-> overpopulation -> religion -> war -> poverty ) What makes those trump voters from a distance so lovely?