5 ms·

How do you unionize just the value producers, without also unionizing (and entrenching) layers of middle management?

• crdoconnor 10y ago
  Why would middle management need unionization?
  • mymosh 10y ago
    Would a senior programmer be ejected from the union when they are promoted to say a project manager? I'm just not sure you can isolate value producers.
    • crdoconnor 10y ago
      The key question isn't "do they produce value?", it's "can they hire and fire?" Once people acquire power over resources/people the shift from value creation to value extraction is pretty natural.
      • lsc 10y ago
        > The key question isn't "do they produce value?", it's "can they hire and fire?" This is traditionally the line that people draw, yes, but I think the reasons for that come from the other end. That's the thing; the manager who manages the cashiers at the grocery store doesn't have more power than the individual contributor software engineer who writes the software for the registers, not in any reasonable sense. That's not why the the line is traditionally drawn where it is. The line is traditionally drawn where it is because it is management's job to act as a proxy for the will and interests of the owners, and pretending to do that while being in the same union as the workers would be very difficult, or at the very least, quite awkward.
        • crdoconnor 10y ago
          The power relationship a cashier has with his hiring/firing manager at a grocery store is not materially different to the relationship a software developer has with his hiring/firing manager. In both cases the managers' job is to keep the workers in line.
          • lsc 10y ago
            >The power relationship a cashier has with his hiring/firing manager at a grocery store is not materially different to the relationship a software developer has with his hiring/firing manager. I disagree. >In both cases the managers' job is to keep the workers in line. While I agree with this part, I think the differences in the pay of the worker makes for a hugely different power dynamic. a period of unemployment is a lot easier to take if you can live on 1/4th of what you get paid.
  • maxerickson 10y ago
    Right, they are forming professional societies. (Like SHRM: https://www.shrm.org/ https://www.shrm.org/ , which just showed a TV advertisement, for some reason)
• maxxxxx 10y ago
  As long as companies maintain a pyramid structure management layers will be outnumbered by workers. It balances things automatically.
• astazangasta 10y ago
  It is my belief that after the creation of the NLRB this is no longer possible, though people did it before that.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]