8 ms·

Do they operate in Brazil? They apparently have no offices there and are only available over the internet (as is true of all websites throughout most of the wor

Do they operate in Brazil? They apparently have no offices there and are only available over the internet (as is true of all websites throughout most of the world.) How can anyone expect to hold what amounts to a random IP address on the internet responsible for anything?

t3nary 10y ago
Their apps are in the Brazilian app stores
- hbosch 10y ago
  They are in the Apple and Google app stores, you mean to say.
  - t3nary 10y ago
    The person I was replying to asked "Do they operate in Brazil?". And considering that the app stores are on a country level, I'd say they do.
    - newman8r 10y ago
      The app stores operate there as distributors. Just because my product is distributed somewhere by a third party doesn't necessarily mean I operate there. If an art dealer sells a painting to someone in brazil, does it mean the original artist operates in Brazil?
      - colejohnson66 10y ago
        I think the difference is that you /knowingly/ (to an extent) sell your app to Brazil. If you sell your art depicting, say, women in power to Saudia Arabia to someone here and they move to Saudia Arabia and sell it, it's not your fault. But if you told him it's ok to sell that painting in Saudia Arabia, I would assume you can be held liable. (Not that I agree with that, but that's what it looks like)
        newman8r 10y ago
        In the artist/dealer scenario, only the latter is actually under the legal jurisdiction of Saudi Arabia and could be legally compelled to follow a court order. They can choose to hold anyone liable but their legal and practical ability to compel an entity to comply doesn't extend beyond their state unless they have an agreement with another state. Apple has a corporate office in Brazil (google too) and they're the ones who distribute and approve the application for sale there. They're legally required (I assume) to respond to legal notice they're served with. WhatsApp is not legally required to do so, and others have pointed out that it might not even be legally feasible for them to do so. Of course this situation is more complex because obviously Apple doesn't have the data and I doubt Brazil wants to get into a legal battle with Apple. And although Brazil doesn't have the ability to force WhatsApp to comply with anything, they do have the leverage of being able to shut down their service. Should make for an interesting story to follow. At the very minimum, if they had served Apple/Google instead, they would have had a legal requirement to actually respond. I don't know much about the actual case so these are mostly assumptions.
- speeder 10y ago
  My apps are in the Danish Google Play and Apple App Store... I never been there, I don't read or write danish, I never interacted with danish government, or met any danish person. If the dane government wanted something from me, and sent a letter to some random person, written in danish, even if it reaches me, I wouldn't understand it anyway. Thus, having app in some other country store doesn't prove much, except that you clicked "publish" somewhere on Google or Apple uploading interfaces.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    > except that you clicked "publish" somewhere on Google or Apple uploading interfaces. At which point you agree to adhere to their laws and regulations. A famous example of someone operating legally under local law, but who got prosecuted for having merely a website accessible in another country, was Kim Dotcom. That’s the current state of international law, either lobby to change it, or accept it, but don't ignore it.
    - gambiting 10y ago
      >>At which point you agree to adhere to their laws and regulations. Uhm nope. If my app(published on Apple Store/Google Play) violated a law in Saudi Arabia and they sent me a letter requesting me to appear and subject myself to 100 lashes for violating their law, I would very promptly disregard said letter, to put it politely.
      - kuschku 10y ago
        Then don’t publish your app in those countries.
        gambiting 10y ago
        But....why not? As a person interested in selling my app, why would I not publish it in the largest number of markets available?
kartan 10y ago
This argument looks like it can also be applied to even malware. If I put something illegal doesn't has the judges right to stop the distribution of that app in the country? Another question is if what Watsapp did should be illegal. But if the judges can't stop internet companies from doing something illegal who do you thing should do it?
- necessity 10y ago
  No, he does not have that right. By that same logic brazilians shouldn't be allowed to visit websites from any other country where there's a discrepancy with brazilian law. With a government like ours next thing you know we have our own Great Firewall. This kind of thing can't even be enforced, being so easy to bypass.
  - gcb0 10y ago
    except you are wrong. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T... every country treats certain content as criminal as they wish. Where the servers are is just a minor detail.
    - necessity 10y ago
      No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass, specially if its a decentralized service. Nevertheless its an outrageous retrenchment of our freedom.
      - tremon 10y ago
        No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass All laws are easy to bypass, what's your point? Ever tried to go 60 in a 30km/h zone? Lack of 100% enforcement does not make a law useless.
gcb0 10y ago
BS! they have bank accounts and deals with many tel co to operate as they do in each country they are. you do not get pre-installed on the three biggest mobile operators phones (99.9% of market) and get deals where data to your service do not count as part of the limited data-plan on two of them, by just "being an IP address on the web".
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
  Do you have a source for this? Why would bank accounts need to be situated in Brazil for these deals to happen? That doesn't make sense.
  - gcb0 10y ago
    you can pay whats app directly via the operator. e.g. http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-whatsapp http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-wha... you can't do that in brazil without having the papers to do business there. in fact, you can't even sell anything without the right documents. Just like everywhere else.
    - ithkuil 10y ago
      paying whatsapp? I don't know portuguese so I didn't actually read what the deal is. Is this a service where subscribers pay the carrier a fee for 30 days of unlimited data traffic to whatsapp servers (VoIP excluded) + 50M of data ? If yes, does that constitute a transaction the consumer makes directy to whatsapp via the operator? I understand that likely whatsapp and TIM (an Italian company btw) might have made some deal and exchanged some money for the use of whatsapp logo etc, but I guess that transaction could have been done anywhere.
      - gcb0 10y ago
        tim is Spanish. the app has in app purchase. that page describes both what you described plus paying for in app purchases via operator

t3nary 10y ago

Their apps are in the Brazilian app stores

hbosch 10y ago
They are in the Apple and Google app stores, you mean to say.
- t3nary 10y ago
  The person I was replying to asked "Do they operate in Brazil?". And considering that the app stores are on a country level, I'd say they do.
  - newman8r 10y ago
    The app stores operate there as distributors. Just because my product is distributed somewhere by a third party doesn't necessarily mean I operate there. If an art dealer sells a painting to someone in brazil, does it mean the original artist operates in Brazil?
    - colejohnson66 10y ago
      I think the difference is that you /knowingly/ (to an extent) sell your app to Brazil. If you sell your art depicting, say, women in power to Saudia Arabia to someone here and they move to Saudia Arabia and sell it, it's not your fault. But if you told him it's ok to sell that painting in Saudia Arabia, I would assume you can be held liable. (Not that I agree with that, but that's what it looks like)
      - newman8r 10y ago
        In the artist/dealer scenario, only the latter is actually under the legal jurisdiction of Saudi Arabia and could be legally compelled to follow a court order. They can choose to hold anyone liable but their legal and practical ability to compel an entity to comply doesn't extend beyond their state unless they have an agreement with another state. Apple has a corporate office in Brazil (google too) and they're the ones who distribute and approve the application for sale there. They're legally required (I assume) to respond to legal notice they're served with. WhatsApp is not legally required to do so, and others have pointed out that it might not even be legally feasible for them to do so. Of course this situation is more complex because obviously Apple doesn't have the data and I doubt Brazil wants to get into a legal battle with Apple. And although Brazil doesn't have the ability to force WhatsApp to comply with anything, they do have the leverage of being able to shut down their service. Should make for an interesting story to follow. At the very minimum, if they had served Apple/Google instead, they would have had a legal requirement to actually respond. I don't know much about the actual case so these are mostly assumptions.
speeder 10y ago
My apps are in the Danish Google Play and Apple App Store... I never been there, I don't read or write danish, I never interacted with danish government, or met any danish person. If the dane government wanted something from me, and sent a letter to some random person, written in danish, even if it reaches me, I wouldn't understand it anyway. Thus, having app in some other country store doesn't prove much, except that you clicked "publish" somewhere on Google or Apple uploading interfaces.
- kuschku 10y ago
  > except that you clicked "publish" somewhere on Google or Apple uploading interfaces. At which point you agree to adhere to their laws and regulations. A famous example of someone operating legally under local law, but who got prosecuted for having merely a website accessible in another country, was Kim Dotcom. That’s the current state of international law, either lobby to change it, or accept it, but don't ignore it.
  - gambiting 10y ago
    >>At which point you agree to adhere to their laws and regulations. Uhm nope. If my app(published on Apple Store/Google Play) violated a law in Saudi Arabia and they sent me a letter requesting me to appear and subject myself to 100 lashes for violating their law, I would very promptly disregard said letter, to put it politely.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      Then don’t publish your app in those countries.
      - gambiting 10y ago
        But....why not? As a person interested in selling my app, why would I not publish it in the largest number of markets available?

kartan 10y ago

This argument looks like it can also be applied to even malware. If I put something illegal doesn't has the judges right to stop the distribution of that app in the country? Another question is if what Watsapp did should be illegal. But if the judges can't stop internet companies from doing something illegal who do you thing should do it?

necessity 10y ago
No, he does not have that right. By that same logic brazilians shouldn't be allowed to visit websites from any other country where there's a discrepancy with brazilian law. With a government like ours next thing you know we have our own Great Firewall. This kind of thing can't even be enforced, being so easy to bypass.
- gcb0 10y ago
  except you are wrong. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T... every country treats certain content as criminal as they wish. Where the servers are is just a minor detail.
  - necessity 10y ago
    No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass, specially if its a decentralized service. Nevertheless its an outrageous retrenchment of our freedom.
    - tremon 10y ago
      No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass All laws are easy to bypass, what's your point? Ever tried to go 60 in a 30km/h zone? Lack of 100% enforcement does not make a law useless.

gcb0 10y ago

BS! they have bank accounts and deals with many tel co to operate as they do in each country they are. you do not get pre-installed on the three biggest mobile operators phones (99.9% of market) and get deals where data to your service do not count as part of the limited data-plan on two of them, by just "being an IP address on the web".

eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
Do you have a source for this? Why would bank accounts need to be situated in Brazil for these deals to happen? That doesn't make sense.
- gcb0 10y ago
  you can pay whats app directly via the operator. e.g. http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-whatsapp http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-wha... you can't do that in brazil without having the papers to do business there. in fact, you can't even sell anything without the right documents. Just like everywhere else.
  - ithkuil 10y ago
    paying whatsapp? I don't know portuguese so I didn't actually read what the deal is. Is this a service where subscribers pay the carrier a fee for 30 days of unlimited data traffic to whatsapp servers (VoIP excluded) + 50M of data ? If yes, does that constitute a transaction the consumer makes directy to whatsapp via the operator? I understand that likely whatsapp and TIM (an Italian company btw) might have made some deal and exchanged some money for the use of whatsapp logo etc, but I guess that transaction could have been done anywhere.
    - gcb0 10y ago
      tim is Spanish. the app has in app purchase. that page describes both what you described plus paying for in app purchases via operator