6 ms·

E Programming Language: Write Secure Distributed Software

57 points by jervisfm 10y ago

hellofunk 10y ago
C and C++ are both powerful languages but D brings some new things to the table. Then there's E, innovative yes, but why use E when we have F, or better, F#? Personally, I've used G for a couple years now but I am betting the future on the H language. Some people are already skipping ahead to using K, but the guys I'm most scared by are those who only use R.
- yati 10y ago
  C came from the B language, which itself came from BCPL. In that way, the next true successor of C will have to be P, and sure enough, we have something going on here: https://plang.codeplex.com/ https://plang.codeplex.com/ :)
- jksmith 10y ago
  I'm disappointed that we have more letters to go before we get to the best language ever developed. I'll probably be retired by then.
  - goldbrick 10y ago
    I'm disappointed that Z is already here and it's only incremental updates to Bash.
- cbsmith 10y ago
  You forgot about J...
mhd 10y ago
Wasn't E a somewhat popular Amiga PL?
- brakmic 10y ago
  Yes, the AmigaE compiler written by Wouter van Oortmerssen. There's a 'portable' version available for several platforms. http://cshandley.co.uk/portable/ http://cshandley.co.uk/portable/
- kragen 10y ago
  That's just an unfortunate name collision; the two E languages are unrelated.
lbo1 10y ago
For what it's worth, capnproto's RPC protocol is based on this. (https://capnproto.org/rpc.html https://capnproto.org/rpc.html)
- kentonv 10y ago
  Not just that -- Mark Miller, designer of E, is also an advisor to Sandstorm.io, the parent project of Cap'n Proto: https://sandstorm.io/about#advisors https://sandstorm.io/about#advisors Cap'n Proto is very much E's distributed programming concepts "ported" to other languages, and Mark helped me get the details right. Interestingly, E takes a very different approach from standard distributed systems practices today. Most distributed programming today emphasizes stateless servers performing idempotent operations on a monolithic datastore. Stateful servers are considered too hard to get right. What E did is actually provide the vocabulary needed to be able to reason about stateful servers, so you could get them right. Stateful servers are able to achieve massively better performance, especially in terms of latency, because they don't need to hit persistent storage for every single operation. You obviously need some way to deal with machine and network failures, but E provides that.
siscia 10y ago
I quickly scan the book it is suggested "Walnut" but I didn't grasp why, or how E is "secure" somebody can help?
- inglor 10y ago
  E is written by Mark Miller and is based on "capability theory". In E you can prove a piece of code is safe and capabilities are more explicit.
  - nv-vn 10y ago
    How do these proofs work if code has IO? For example, if I read a number from the command line, how can I know that it's within a certain range? I'm only very familiar with this type of thing through languages with explicit IO (Idris, F* to an extent), so I'm interested in seeing how it works in languages with implicit side effects.
    - abecedarius 10y ago
      For telling if a number's in a range, it has contracts (called guards). Effects like I/O have to be explicit: code that wants to do I/O has to be passed an object that can do I/O, it doesn't get any such objects by default at the time it's loaded. Besides this means of control ('capability security') there's also an 'auditors' mechanism for static analysis, e.g. to require some code to have no side effects. (I'm not endorsing the GP comment; it's not how I would've phrased things. The auditing mechanism does enable proofs, but it was relatively new and experimental, compared to the core capability-security ideas.) Added: http://erights.org/talks/auditors/index.html http://erights.org/talks/auditors/index.html
inglor 10y ago
For those wondering, this is Mark Miller, you probably know him from JavaScript as he invented promises and wrote the prototype for the popular Q library before Kris made it more ergonomic. Edit: this is also a nice read http://www.erights.org/talks/thesis/ http://www.erights.org/talks/thesis/ Some of his current work is about allowing safe execution in JavaScript, see: https://github.com/FUDCo/proposal-frozen-realms/ https://github.com/FUDCo/proposal-frozen-realms/ and http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~ataly/Papers/sp11.pdf http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~ataly/Papers/sp11.pdf
poorman 10y ago
I think I'll stick with Elixir.
yvdriess 10y ago
Outside of its security model, E is an interesting language to study because of its actor/object system. Objects live in 'vats', an actor with a local stack and an event loop thread/process. Objects can sequentially/locally communicate with each other in the same vat, but have to communicate as actors between vats. AmbientTalk took it a few steps further, with a concept of near and far references, future pipelining, reflection etc. edit: Oops, E already had near/far references and promises. AmbientTalk does add more on the reflection/meta-programming side of things and features for mobile ad-hoc networks such as object discovery.
- abecedarius 10y ago
  The near and far references and promise pipelining were already in E, unless I'm misunderstanding -- I've only read one paper on AmbientTalk.
  - yvdriess 10y ago
    Yes, you are indeed right.
0xCMP 10y ago
Oh wow, I was just reading about this yesterday in Coders At Work[0]. Douglas Crockford[1] worked on this at a company that was trying to do some distributing computing work in the 90s-00s. They originally based it off the JVM but SUN had issues with that so they turned it more in to what he described as a scripting language "which is what we have today." [0]: http://www.amazon.com/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Programming/dp/1430219483 http://www.amazon.com/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Programm... [1]: http://javascript.crockford.com/ http://javascript.crockford.com/
- evgen 10y ago
  So in the beginning Electric Communities was going to do large-scale, distributed virtual worlds (think MMORPGs as shopping malls...) with real security. The original plan was to use Joule, but negotiations didn't work out and while waiting around a couple of engineers created a reasonable subset in this new language called java. This subset eventaully because the original E language. Crock was the slides and presentations guy of the core team, so after knowing him for a while as mostaly a non-coder it was odd to see him pop up again and have such a big impact on the javascript world.

57 points by jervisfm 10y ago

C and C++ are both powerful languages but D brings some new things to the table. Then there's E, innovative yes, but why use E when we have F, or better, F#? Personally, I've used G for a couple years now but I am betting the future on the H language. Some people are already skipping ahead to using K, but the guys I'm most scared by are those who only use R.

yati 10y ago
C came from the B language, which itself came from BCPL. In that way, the next true successor of C will have to be P, and sure enough, we have something going on here: https://plang.codeplex.com/ https://plang.codeplex.com/ :)
jksmith 10y ago
I'm disappointed that we have more letters to go before we get to the best language ever developed. I'll probably be retired by then.
- goldbrick 10y ago
  I'm disappointed that Z is already here and it's only incremental updates to Bash.
cbsmith 10y ago
You forgot about J...

mhd 10y ago

Wasn't E a somewhat popular Amiga PL?

brakmic 10y ago
Yes, the AmigaE compiler written by Wouter van Oortmerssen. There's a 'portable' version available for several platforms. http://cshandley.co.uk/portable/ http://cshandley.co.uk/portable/
kragen 10y ago
That's just an unfortunate name collision; the two E languages are unrelated.

lbo1 10y ago

For what it's worth, capnproto's RPC protocol is based on this. (https://capnproto.org/rpc.html https://capnproto.org/rpc.html)

kentonv 10y ago
Not just that -- Mark Miller, designer of E, is also an advisor to Sandstorm.io, the parent project of Cap'n Proto: https://sandstorm.io/about#advisors https://sandstorm.io/about#advisors Cap'n Proto is very much E's distributed programming concepts "ported" to other languages, and Mark helped me get the details right. Interestingly, E takes a very different approach from standard distributed systems practices today. Most distributed programming today emphasizes stateless servers performing idempotent operations on a monolithic datastore. Stateful servers are considered too hard to get right. What E did is actually provide the vocabulary needed to be able to reason about stateful servers, so you could get them right. Stateful servers are able to achieve massively better performance, especially in terms of latency, because they don't need to hit persistent storage for every single operation. You obviously need some way to deal with machine and network failures, but E provides that.

siscia 10y ago

I quickly scan the book it is suggested "Walnut" but I didn't grasp why, or how E is "secure" somebody can help?

inglor 10y ago
E is written by Mark Miller and is based on "capability theory". In E you can prove a piece of code is safe and capabilities are more explicit.
- nv-vn 10y ago
  How do these proofs work if code has IO? For example, if I read a number from the command line, how can I know that it's within a certain range? I'm only very familiar with this type of thing through languages with explicit IO (Idris, F* to an extent), so I'm interested in seeing how it works in languages with implicit side effects.
  - abecedarius 10y ago
    For telling if a number's in a range, it has contracts (called guards). Effects like I/O have to be explicit: code that wants to do I/O has to be passed an object that can do I/O, it doesn't get any such objects by default at the time it's loaded. Besides this means of control ('capability security') there's also an 'auditors' mechanism for static analysis, e.g. to require some code to have no side effects. (I'm not endorsing the GP comment; it's not how I would've phrased things. The auditing mechanism does enable proofs, but it was relatively new and experimental, compared to the core capability-security ideas.) Added: http://erights.org/talks/auditors/index.html http://erights.org/talks/auditors/index.html

inglor 10y ago

For those wondering, this is Mark Miller, you probably know him from JavaScript as he invented promises and wrote the prototype for the popular Q library before Kris made it more ergonomic. Edit: this is also a nice read http://www.erights.org/talks/thesis/ http://www.erights.org/talks/thesis/ Some of his current work is about allowing safe execution in JavaScript, see: https://github.com/FUDCo/proposal-frozen-realms/ https://github.com/FUDCo/proposal-frozen-realms/ and http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~ataly/Papers/sp11.pdf http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~ataly/Papers/sp11.pdf

poorman 10y ago

I think I'll stick with Elixir.

yvdriess 10y ago

Outside of its security model, E is an interesting language to study because of its actor/object system. Objects live in 'vats', an actor with a local stack and an event loop thread/process. Objects can sequentially/locally communicate with each other in the same vat, but have to communicate as actors between vats. AmbientTalk took it a few steps further, with a concept of near and far references, future pipelining, reflection etc. edit: Oops, E already had near/far references and promises. AmbientTalk does add more on the reflection/meta-programming side of things and features for mobile ad-hoc networks such as object discovery.

abecedarius 10y ago
The near and far references and promise pipelining were already in E, unless I'm misunderstanding -- I've only read one paper on AmbientTalk.
- yvdriess 10y ago
  Yes, you are indeed right.

0xCMP 10y ago

Oh wow, I was just reading about this yesterday in Coders At Work[0]. Douglas Crockford[1] worked on this at a company that was trying to do some distributing computing work in the 90s-00s. They originally based it off the JVM but SUN had issues with that so they turned it more in to what he described as a scripting language "which is what we have today." [0]: http://www.amazon.com/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Programming/dp/1430219483 http://www.amazon.com/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Programm... [1]: http://javascript.crockford.com/ http://javascript.crockford.com/

evgen 10y ago
So in the beginning Electric Communities was going to do large-scale, distributed virtual worlds (think MMORPGs as shopping malls...) with real security. The original plan was to use Joule, but negotiations didn't work out and while waiting around a couple of engineers created a reasonable subset in this new language called java. This subset eventaully because the original E language. Crock was the slides and presentations guy of the core team, so after knowing him for a while as mostaly a non-coder it was odd to see him pop up again and have such a big impact on the javascript world.