6 ms·

TTIP Documents Revealed

256 points by BonsaiDen 10y ago

aw3c2 10y ago
All I see is a single post and an image of a container ship, is my browser broken or are there no documents?
- weinzierl 10y ago
  > The material, consisting of 240 pages, was provided by Greenpeace and will be published this coming Monday.
  - r721 10y ago
    >Greenpeace Netherlands is releasing a package of leaked TTIP negotiation texts on Monday morning, at 11am CET http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/press/releases/2016/Leaked-TTIP-documents-confirm-major-risks-for-climate-environment-and-consumer-safety/ http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/press/releases/20...
- kzrdude 10y ago
  Hit the International Home or German Edition links on the left hand side. Looks like the german newspaper has a lot more articles though.
  - anotheryou 10y ago
    Not much additional content in the german articles. Thursday comes the print edition I think, that probably will have longer stories about it.
marmaduke 10y ago
Why would the EU comprise citizens' health to sell a few more cars? Is it American investors on both sides?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  I'm not sure that they will. The Brits at least don't seem to be interested in presenting their nethers for this chopping block.
  - M2Ys4U 10y ago
    The UK government is one of the most pro-TTIP in the EU, unfortunately.
    - Silhouette 10y ago
      And now you know why it's mostly being negotiated in secret. The NHS is basically the third rail of British politics. If you want to know what happens when a government tries a little too hard to undermine it, look at any of our newspapers from last Tuesday or Wednesday. If you want to know what happens when a government mounts an all-out attack on it, look up "political annihilation for at least a generation" in your dictionary of choice. The Liberal Democrats basically got wiped out as a force in British politics in a single election last time, and much of that was because of how they mishandled one sensitive issue several years earlier. Trying to force NHS privatisation and allow foreign companies to literally sue future British governments who sought to undo any resulting damage would make the tuition fees mess that brought down the Lib Dems look like a warm-up act.
- mtgx 10y ago
  And the EU may not even gain all that much from car sales, either, if the EU car companies don't get serious about EVs. TTIP may just make it easier for Tesla to sell more cars into the EU.
- RobertoG 10y ago
  This is not an EU against USA thing. It's more a corporations against the people thing. The problem those treaties solve is that they lock future legislative changes at the national level. After signing it, how are you going to change it? It will be very hard and we will accept it because it's like "things work in the real world".
marak830 10y ago
Well doesn't that agreement sound bloody delightful. I am looking forward to reading the full text.
edko 10y ago
How about some reciprocation on immigration laws as well? How fair and free can this agreement be if the immigration flow in one of the directions is so much easier than in the other?
- tomp 10y ago
  Which direction is that (honest question, I suspect US -> EU being easier, but I recall companies having trouble "importing" Americans as well...)?
  - davidw 10y ago
    US -> EU is not easy although it depends on the exact country you're talking about. Maybe a bit more rational in many cases, but not easy.
  - jakub_g 10y ago
    In fact there's no such a thing as a EU-US deal at all. US has separate deals with each EU country. If you're from one of non-blessed EU countries (Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Romania and most notably Poland), you can not enter the US without a visa, even for tourism.
cmarschner 10y ago
The estimated benefit of TTIP is 400,000 jobs and 0.5% GDP for the EU. Not much. Apparently, the few selected MoP in Germany who were given access to the drafts had a few hours to look at a 1000+ pages, in English legalese, with a dictionary but no internet access. Apparently, the drafts were full of certain spelling errors. The assumption was that they were personalized and injected on purpose such that photographs could be traced back to the origin. Source - German media coverage.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  What would those MPs lose if they leaked the text? It seems like a vote-winning action...
  - richmarr 10y ago
    My guess would be that they'd be gently shunned, so would probably be weighing up the relative merit of some (possibly short term) popularity against longer term merit of being able to effectively collaborate with party & peers.
    - erikb 10y ago
      What I don't get is why you would make your peers your enemy. Making the US bargaining side your enemy makes sense, but what problems would your peers have with that? Especially long term.
  - lumberjack 10y ago
    They would probably be chastised by their respective parties.
  - mcv 10y ago
    I suspect it's illegal and punishable in some way. There are definitely German MPs who would be congratulated rather than shunned for exposing this. But if only selected MPs can see the text at all, maybe they've been selected carefully.
- 10y ago
auganov 10y ago
That overzealous secrecy around TTIP is a shame. It doesn't look like such a bad piece of legislation. The overall theme seems to be some deregulation on EU side (as generally EU is the over-regulated side) and bringing regulatory standards closer together. The IP protections are the most concerning part so far IMO? I don't know much about that kind of negotiations, the secrecy might as well be the right strategy to push it through I guess?
- tobltobs 10y ago
  " the secrecy might as well be the right strategy to push it through I guess" Why not canceling this whole concept of democracy.
- inDigiNeous 10y ago
  The most alarming features of this proposed legislation are the facts that it contains this: ".. it also contains an ‘investor protection’ provision allowing corporations to effectively sue governments for taking action to harm their business." (source: http://www.publicfinanceinternational.org/news/2016/02/ttip-big-business-could-sue-governments-over-tax-profits http://www.publicfinanceinternational.org/news/2016/02/ttip-...) So .. effectively, this could mean that a corporation could overrule a government in legislation if it would be harming it's profits. The big problem with this for example here in Finland is that through these measure big corporations could try to take over the nations natural resources, like water and forest, which are and should be protected by local laws. But through this kind of legal means, these corporations could be allowed to sue the government over the loss of a profit due to protecting legislation, in order just to make a profit out of it. Which is complete and total bullshit.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    My biggest issue with the TTIP; thanks for calling it out.
    - jakub_g 10y ago
      And if someone thinks this is a virtual threat, google for "Philip Morris vs. (Australia|Uruguay)" (countries being sued for anti-tobacco regulations hurting business of PM)
matt_wulfeck 10y ago
> The U.S. government concurrently has criticized the fundamental prevention principal of the EU Consumer Centre which protects 500 million Europeans from consuming genetically modified food and hormone-treated meat. Good for the EU. If only our government showed the same care for its own citizens.
- thesimon 10y ago
  Related to food: The German site says the US are pushing to remove the protected designation of origin. "Parma" ham could be manufactured in Kentucky, Camembert in New York and Champagne in California. Crazy.
  - seqastian 10y ago
    it is impossible to get this through the parliaments in europe.
    - sago 10y ago
      I suspect the US are very aware of this, and it is one of the reasons for the secrecy. They start with overly harsh demands, then can 'concede' back to a favourable position. Pre-seeding your concessions is important. If you publish those harsh demands to the citizenry of the other side, however, you're in danger of your negotiating partners losing their mandate as a result.
- zavi 10y ago
  > The U.S., for example, demands that statutory prohibitions on products to protect human health should only be allowed to be passed if it has been scientifically proven that these products really are harmful. Sounds like a reasonable argument.
  - joesmo 10y ago
    Unless you're the one that dies and becomes the scientific proof.
  - 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
prodemo 10y ago
I wonder whats the estimated damage of democracy to the western economies (seriously). Wouldn't it be way better to let the heads of big cooperations or their relatives rule the western world? This way trade agreements like TTIP could be done in a more open way. Nobody would be able to complain as they got no vote and legislation would be easier! Also we could forbid lobbyism and replace it with a more open and honest "Pay for Law". So vote for more open legislation by abolishing democracy. Remember making life easier for the best and richest among us is the most nobel goal in life.
Qantourisc 10y ago
I just wondered about one thing. Why when the US asked (forced ?) the EU to negotiate in secret didn't the EU answer with a f.u. ? Also who are these people that agree to do this in secret ?
- fsloth 10y ago
  US has a pretty strong political leverage in most of europe. 1.Believable defence against Russia is built on the existence of Nato and the US forces it brings. 2. I guess there is still a sense of goodwill involved. US funds helped to rebuild europe after ww2 to stopgap Soviet Union. 3. Economic threat (not direct, but latent). 4. Personal reputation. I guess being too anti US is considered a faux pass in various places.
- mcv 10y ago
  The EU isn't quite the democratic paradise either. We too have corporate lobbyists writing laws, and politicians and officials negotiating behind closed doors. On average, the EU is more transparent than the EU, and politicians tend to feel more like they really should be representing the people, but it's really a sliding scale with the US just a bit further down than the EU. I really hope transparency about the TTIP negotiations will help turn this around in both the EU and the US.
ghostDancer 10y ago
And they call this free market. US government bullying for benefit of the corporations and not even for the US people. This is going back to middle ages , the landlords and the peasants.
onetimePete 10y ago
Assuming TTIP fails, how will the next contract to attack democracy be called? QTIP? UTIP? COUP? GRACE? At least put some effort into naming. To have your rights grind away so slowly and being coerced like a mule to even thread that mill that maims you.. Im for a law that forbids to discuss content-similar contracts that have been downvoted for at least 8 years.

256 points by BonsaiDen 10y ago

aw3c2 10y ago

All I see is a single post and an image of a container ship, is my browser broken or are there no documents?

weinzierl 10y ago
> The material, consisting of 240 pages, was provided by Greenpeace and will be published this coming Monday.
- r721 10y ago
  >Greenpeace Netherlands is releasing a package of leaked TTIP negotiation texts on Monday morning, at 11am CET http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/press/releases/2016/Leaked-TTIP-documents-confirm-major-risks-for-climate-environment-and-consumer-safety/ http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/press/releases/20...
kzrdude 10y ago
Hit the International Home or German Edition links on the left hand side. Looks like the german newspaper has a lot more articles though.
- anotheryou 10y ago
  Not much additional content in the german articles. Thursday comes the print edition I think, that probably will have longer stories about it.

marmaduke 10y ago

Why would the EU comprise citizens' health to sell a few more cars? Is it American investors on both sides?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Aelinsaar 10y ago
I'm not sure that they will. The Brits at least don't seem to be interested in presenting their nethers for this chopping block.
- M2Ys4U 10y ago
  The UK government is one of the most pro-TTIP in the EU, unfortunately.
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    And now you know why it's mostly being negotiated in secret. The NHS is basically the third rail of British politics. If you want to know what happens when a government tries a little too hard to undermine it, look at any of our newspapers from last Tuesday or Wednesday. If you want to know what happens when a government mounts an all-out attack on it, look up "political annihilation for at least a generation" in your dictionary of choice. The Liberal Democrats basically got wiped out as a force in British politics in a single election last time, and much of that was because of how they mishandled one sensitive issue several years earlier. Trying to force NHS privatisation and allow foreign companies to literally sue future British governments who sought to undo any resulting damage would make the tuition fees mess that brought down the Lib Dems look like a warm-up act.
mtgx 10y ago
And the EU may not even gain all that much from car sales, either, if the EU car companies don't get serious about EVs. TTIP may just make it easier for Tesla to sell more cars into the EU.
RobertoG 10y ago
This is not an EU against USA thing. It's more a corporations against the people thing. The problem those treaties solve is that they lock future legislative changes at the national level. After signing it, how are you going to change it? It will be very hard and we will accept it because it's like "things work in the real world".

marak830 10y ago

Well doesn't that agreement sound bloody delightful. I am looking forward to reading the full text.

edko 10y ago

How about some reciprocation on immigration laws as well? How fair and free can this agreement be if the immigration flow in one of the directions is so much easier than in the other?

tomp 10y ago
Which direction is that (honest question, I suspect US -> EU being easier, but I recall companies having trouble "importing" Americans as well...)?
- davidw 10y ago
  US -> EU is not easy although it depends on the exact country you're talking about. Maybe a bit more rational in many cases, but not easy.
- jakub_g 10y ago
  In fact there's no such a thing as a EU-US deal at all. US has separate deals with each EU country. If you're from one of non-blessed EU countries (Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Romania and most notably Poland), you can not enter the US without a visa, even for tourism.

cmarschner 10y ago

The estimated benefit of TTIP is 400,000 jobs and 0.5% GDP for the EU. Not much. Apparently, the few selected MoP in Germany who were given access to the drafts had a few hours to look at a 1000+ pages, in English legalese, with a dictionary but no internet access. Apparently, the drafts were full of certain spelling errors. The assumption was that they were personalized and injected on purpose such that photographs could be traced back to the origin. Source - German media coverage.

Symbiote 10y ago
What would those MPs lose if they leaked the text? It seems like a vote-winning action...
- richmarr 10y ago
  My guess would be that they'd be gently shunned, so would probably be weighing up the relative merit of some (possibly short term) popularity against longer term merit of being able to effectively collaborate with party & peers.
  - erikb 10y ago
    What I don't get is why you would make your peers your enemy. Making the US bargaining side your enemy makes sense, but what problems would your peers have with that? Especially long term.
- lumberjack 10y ago
  They would probably be chastised by their respective parties.
- mcv 10y ago
  I suspect it's illegal and punishable in some way. There are definitely German MPs who would be congratulated rather than shunned for exposing this. But if only selected MPs can see the text at all, maybe they've been selected carefully.
10y ago

auganov 10y ago

That overzealous secrecy around TTIP is a shame. It doesn't look like such a bad piece of legislation. The overall theme seems to be some deregulation on EU side (as generally EU is the over-regulated side) and bringing regulatory standards closer together. The IP protections are the most concerning part so far IMO? I don't know much about that kind of negotiations, the secrecy might as well be the right strategy to push it through I guess?

tobltobs 10y ago
" the secrecy might as well be the right strategy to push it through I guess" Why not canceling this whole concept of democracy.
inDigiNeous 10y ago
The most alarming features of this proposed legislation are the facts that it contains this: ".. it also contains an ‘investor protection’ provision allowing corporations to effectively sue governments for taking action to harm their business." (source: http://www.publicfinanceinternational.org/news/2016/02/ttip-big-business-could-sue-governments-over-tax-profits http://www.publicfinanceinternational.org/news/2016/02/ttip-...) So .. effectively, this could mean that a corporation could overrule a government in legislation if it would be harming it's profits. The big problem with this for example here in Finland is that through these measure big corporations could try to take over the nations natural resources, like water and forest, which are and should be protected by local laws. But through this kind of legal means, these corporations could be allowed to sue the government over the loss of a profit due to protecting legislation, in order just to make a profit out of it. Which is complete and total bullshit.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  My biggest issue with the TTIP; thanks for calling it out.
  - jakub_g 10y ago
    And if someone thinks this is a virtual threat, google for "Philip Morris vs. (Australia|Uruguay)" (countries being sued for anti-tobacco regulations hurting business of PM)

matt_wulfeck 10y ago

> The U.S. government concurrently has criticized the fundamental prevention principal of the EU Consumer Centre which protects 500 million Europeans from consuming genetically modified food and hormone-treated meat. Good for the EU. If only our government showed the same care for its own citizens.

thesimon 10y ago
Related to food: The German site says the US are pushing to remove the protected designation of origin. "Parma" ham could be manufactured in Kentucky, Camembert in New York and Champagne in California. Crazy.
- seqastian 10y ago
  it is impossible to get this through the parliaments in europe.
  - sago 10y ago
    I suspect the US are very aware of this, and it is one of the reasons for the secrecy. They start with overly harsh demands, then can 'concede' back to a favourable position. Pre-seeding your concessions is important. If you publish those harsh demands to the citizenry of the other side, however, you're in danger of your negotiating partners losing their mandate as a result.
zavi 10y ago
> The U.S., for example, demands that statutory prohibitions on products to protect human health should only be allowed to be passed if it has been scientifically proven that these products really are harmful. Sounds like a reasonable argument.
- joesmo 10y ago
  Unless you're the one that dies and becomes the scientific proof.
- 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

prodemo 10y ago

I wonder whats the estimated damage of democracy to the western economies (seriously). Wouldn't it be way better to let the heads of big cooperations or their relatives rule the western world? This way trade agreements like TTIP could be done in a more open way. Nobody would be able to complain as they got no vote and legislation would be easier! Also we could forbid lobbyism and replace it with a more open and honest "Pay for Law". So vote for more open legislation by abolishing democracy. Remember making life easier for the best and richest among us is the most nobel goal in life.

Qantourisc 10y ago

I just wondered about one thing. Why when the US asked (forced ?) the EU to negotiate in secret didn't the EU answer with a f.u. ? Also who are these people that agree to do this in secret ?

fsloth 10y ago
US has a pretty strong political leverage in most of europe. 1.Believable defence against Russia is built on the existence of Nato and the US forces it brings. 2. I guess there is still a sense of goodwill involved. US funds helped to rebuild europe after ww2 to stopgap Soviet Union. 3. Economic threat (not direct, but latent). 4. Personal reputation. I guess being too anti US is considered a faux pass in various places.
mcv 10y ago
The EU isn't quite the democratic paradise either. We too have corporate lobbyists writing laws, and politicians and officials negotiating behind closed doors. On average, the EU is more transparent than the EU, and politicians tend to feel more like they really should be representing the people, but it's really a sliding scale with the US just a bit further down than the EU. I really hope transparency about the TTIP negotiations will help turn this around in both the EU and the US.

ghostDancer 10y ago

And they call this free market. US government bullying for benefit of the corporations and not even for the US people. This is going back to middle ages , the landlords and the peasants.

onetimePete 10y ago

Assuming TTIP fails, how will the next contract to attack democracy be called? QTIP? UTIP? COUP? GRACE? At least put some effort into naming. To have your rights grind away so slowly and being coerced like a mule to even thread that mill that maims you.. Im for a law that forbids to discuss content-similar contracts that have been downvoted for at least 8 years.