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<Former Amazon> I won't go on about the work quality at Amazon, there are plenty of other places to read about that. It _is_ important to note that the average

<Former Amazon> I won't go on about the work quality at Amazon, there are plenty of other places to read about that. It _is_ important to note that the average retention at Amazon (even for excellent people) is ~50% for 1 year, and ~20% or lower for the 2nd year. Therefore, these comparisons should really take that into account. Amazon MAY look higher than Microsoft (for example) but because you only see 20% of your total vest the first two years, and everyone in the company makes a max of $160k with anything else bringing you up to market rate being a yearly "bonus", you likely won't see the majority of your earnings. </Former Amazon>

beamatronic 10y ago
Just to clarify - do you mean the expected year-over-year retention is 50% meaning that if 100 people are hired in a year, then 365 days later, only about 50 of them will still be there? How much of that is because they are leaving or being let go?
- FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
  When I was there, managers were guided to PIP (performance improvement plan) to make these numbers. Whether that meant grinding people into the ground, natural attrition, or making up excuses to out people - I saw all of them happen.
aluskuiuc 10y ago
At least when I started there the first two years had cash bonuses to make up the target-comp difference before the larger stock vests came in, so it was fairly even.
- FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
  Absolutely, if you stayed, the numbers definitely add up to what you see here. However, because the attrition was so high, you were not likely to stick around to get a bonus to make up for it.
ucha 10y ago
Do you have any source to back up those numbers (50% and 20%)? They're very unexpected to say the least...
- FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
  To be clear (I realize it may have seemed worse than it was): Day 1: 1000 employees Day 365: 500 employees Day 730: 200 employees.
tamana 10y ago
Where are these 10s of thousands of former Amazonians working now?
- FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
  Microsoft, Google (Seattle), Century Link, Group On, Moz, Redfin, Porch, Chef, White Pages... to name a few. It's almost impossible to throw a dart at this list and not hit at least 5-10 - http://www.geekwire.com/geekwire-200/ http://www.geekwire.com/geekwire-200/
noonenohow 10y ago
> It _is_ important to note that the average retention at Amazon (even for excellent people) is ~50% for 1 year, and ~20% or lower for the 2nd year. Your comment on "retention" is factually incorrect. I'll presume your comments are in relation to "tech roles" such as SDE SDM TPM etc. First the number of Amazon hires in "tech roles" increases by ~50% per year. i.e., in year 1 there are 1,000 SDEs hired, year 2 is 1,500, year 3 is 2,250, year 4 is 3,375 and so on. "Attrition" represents the number of individuals who leave for any reason. This may be because the employee terminates employment or the company terminates employment. Attrition levels are comparable to the rest of the tech industry, ~15% of the current population per year. "Tenure" is the length of employment. Because hiring greatly exceeds attrition you should expect a relatively low average and median retention. As I recall Amazon is approximately 12 months median tenure. This is comparable to Google at ~13 months, for example. Lastly the employees current tenure does not have a substantial impact on the probability of their attrition. Indeed the average tenure at exit is somewhere around 3 years. Which, again, is roughly in line industry standards. In short, the average tenure at Amazon is low because they hire a lot. And while retention is not "good" it is a far cry from what you've represented. Edit: The gross growth rate is actually above 50%. I've attempted to simplify the values where it does not make a material difference to the refutation.
- FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
  > Your comment on "retention" is factually incorrect. I disagree. > First the number of Amazon hires in "tech roles" increases by ~50% per year. i.e., in year 1 there are 1,000 SDEs hired, year 2 is 1,500, year 3 is 2,250, year 4 is 3,375 and so on. This could not possibly be true. If it was, they would be hiring ~1.5M technical people a year (since they've been in business since 1997). Perhaps you meant since 2005, but that would still represent 58k people per year hired. According to this article (http://www.geekwire.com/2015/huge-growth-amazon-reaches-222400-employees-hires-39000-in-last-quarter-alone/ http://www.geekwire.com/2015/huge-growth-amazon-reaches-2224...), they only have 24k in the state of Washington, where the vast number of people are. So nothing about this statement is true. > "Attrition" represents the number of individuals who leave for any reason. This may be because the employee terminates employment or the company terminates employment. Attrition levels are comparable to the rest of the tech industry, ~15% of the current population per year. Can you show me that data? about 15% per year? I've seen vastly different numbers internally, but would prefer not be sued in sharing them. > "Tenure" is the length of employment. Because hiring greatly exceeds attrition you should expect a relatively low average and median retention. As I recall Amazon is approximately 12 months median tenure. This is comparable to Google at ~13 months, for example. Correct, but these numbers are heavily obfuscated due to part time hires and vendors. > Lastly the employees current tenure does not have a substantial impact on the probability of their attrition. Indeed the average tenure at exit is somewhere around 3 years. Again, show me the data. I've seen the internal stuff. If you'd like not to believe me, feel free; I know I don't believe you.

beamatronic 10y ago

Just to clarify - do you mean the expected year-over-year retention is 50% meaning that if 100 people are hired in a year, then 365 days later, only about 50 of them will still be there? How much of that is because they are leaving or being let go?

FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
When I was there, managers were guided to PIP (performance improvement plan) to make these numbers. Whether that meant grinding people into the ground, natural attrition, or making up excuses to out people - I saw all of them happen.

aluskuiuc 10y ago

At least when I started there the first two years had cash bonuses to make up the target-comp difference before the larger stock vests came in, so it was fairly even.

FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
Absolutely, if you stayed, the numbers definitely add up to what you see here. However, because the attrition was so high, you were not likely to stick around to get a bonus to make up for it.

ucha 10y ago

Do you have any source to back up those numbers (50% and 20%)? They're very unexpected to say the least...

FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
To be clear (I realize it may have seemed worse than it was): Day 1: 1000 employees Day 365: 500 employees Day 730: 200 employees.

tamana 10y ago

Where are these 10s of thousands of former Amazonians working now?

FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
Microsoft, Google (Seattle), Century Link, Group On, Moz, Redfin, Porch, Chef, White Pages... to name a few. It's almost impossible to throw a dart at this list and not hit at least 5-10 - http://www.geekwire.com/geekwire-200/ http://www.geekwire.com/geekwire-200/

noonenohow 10y ago

> It _is_ important to note that the average retention at Amazon (even for excellent people) is ~50% for 1 year, and ~20% or lower for the 2nd year. Your comment on "retention" is factually incorrect. I'll presume your comments are in relation to "tech roles" such as SDE SDM TPM etc. First the number of Amazon hires in "tech roles" increases by ~50% per year. i.e., in year 1 there are 1,000 SDEs hired, year 2 is 1,500, year 3 is 2,250, year 4 is 3,375 and so on. "Attrition" represents the number of individuals who leave for any reason. This may be because the employee terminates employment or the company terminates employment. Attrition levels are comparable to the rest of the tech industry, ~15% of the current population per year. "Tenure" is the length of employment. Because hiring greatly exceeds attrition you should expect a relatively low average and median retention. As I recall Amazon is approximately 12 months median tenure. This is comparable to Google at ~13 months, for example. Lastly the employees current tenure does not have a substantial impact on the probability of their attrition. Indeed the average tenure at exit is somewhere around 3 years. Which, again, is roughly in line industry standards. In short, the average tenure at Amazon is low because they hire a lot. And while retention is not "good" it is a far cry from what you've represented. Edit: The gross growth rate is actually above 50%. I've attempted to simplify the values where it does not make a material difference to the refutation.

FmrAMZN_TA 10y ago
> Your comment on "retention" is factually incorrect. I disagree. > First the number of Amazon hires in "tech roles" increases by ~50% per year. i.e., in year 1 there are 1,000 SDEs hired, year 2 is 1,500, year 3 is 2,250, year 4 is 3,375 and so on. This could not possibly be true. If it was, they would be hiring ~1.5M technical people a year (since they've been in business since 1997). Perhaps you meant since 2005, but that would still represent 58k people per year hired. According to this article (http://www.geekwire.com/2015/huge-growth-amazon-reaches-222400-employees-hires-39000-in-last-quarter-alone/ http://www.geekwire.com/2015/huge-growth-amazon-reaches-2224...), they only have 24k in the state of Washington, where the vast number of people are. So nothing about this statement is true. > "Attrition" represents the number of individuals who leave for any reason. This may be because the employee terminates employment or the company terminates employment. Attrition levels are comparable to the rest of the tech industry, ~15% of the current population per year. Can you show me that data? about 15% per year? I've seen vastly different numbers internally, but would prefer not be sued in sharing them. > "Tenure" is the length of employment. Because hiring greatly exceeds attrition you should expect a relatively low average and median retention. As I recall Amazon is approximately 12 months median tenure. This is comparable to Google at ~13 months, for example. Correct, but these numbers are heavily obfuscated due to part time hires and vendors. > Lastly the employees current tenure does not have a substantial impact on the probability of their attrition. Indeed the average tenure at exit is somewhere around 3 years. Again, show me the data. I've seen the internal stuff. If you'd like not to believe me, feel free; I know I don't believe you.