5 ms·

I've been seriously contemplating it for about a year now: is it the time to abandon Europe and find new life elsewhere? Asking for the honest HN opinion, is th

by hebdo 10y ago

I've been seriously contemplating it for about a year now: is it the time to abandon Europe and find new life elsewhere? Asking for the honest HN opinion, is the old continent already the sinking ship? On one hand it is comforting to consider that there is ~1000 years of history of civilized Europe behind us, with rich culture, the discovery and development of science and, in general, prosperity. On the other, it took less than a century for the Western Roman Empire to collapse.

Spooky23 10y ago
Europe made a decision to move away from that history to something more like the US. Swedes and French don't have children, and they are importing Syrians and Africans who do. It's a similar scenario to what happened with the old Dutch and English people in 1860 Manhattan. The new masses of Irish and Jews drove many to leave. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but the future will be very different.
charlesdm 10y ago
Why would you leave Europe? Due to the developments in the last few years?
tomp 10y ago
Where would you want to go? In the US, you're more likely to be killed by a cop than by a terrorist in Europe. Japan is peaceful for now, but has its own problems - rising tensions with China, proximity of North Korea, low economic opportunity. Same goes for most other developed Asian countries. Africa, Middle East, Russia, most of Asia and South America are less developed (AFAIK), in terms of social cohesion, healthcare, economic opportunity. The best options seem to be Australia and New Zealand, they are English-speaking, highly developed, peaceful, lawful and, most importantly, far away - a problem for some (e.g. if you have family members in other countries), but in case of major conflict, it will probably be a good idea. All in all, some perspective is in order. Europe is probably the strongest it's been in the past 100 years. There are 300 million inhabitants, so even 1M migrants is a drop in the bucket. There are no immediate threats from other nation-states, except possibly for a few countries bordering Russia - although even they seem focused more on the Middle East recently. Most European countries still have the strongest social security. On the other hand, the unexpected is just that, by definition. Chances are low, but it's possible that some crazy person does something crazy (Putin? Erdogan? A right-wing EU leader?). But that's true pretty much anywhere in the world.
- abrookewood 10y ago
  Yeah, but in Australia we have sharks, snakes, spiders and drop bears .. don't forget the drop bears. Plus, our Internet is crappy (unless you're on the National Broadband Network) and we are something of a nanny state. Oh, and our housing is ridiculously expensive. But apart from that, everything is pretty good.
  - newjersey 10y ago
    My friends in Australia say it's economy is too reliant on mining and raw exports and that there is not enough value added exports. Is this not a common view in Australia?
    - usert1763 10y ago
      That would be correct......to an extent. I moved to Australia around 10 years ago (originally from Poland but traveled the world extensively) and worked in tech since then wishing I did a course in welding or heavy machinery operation instead. Even mining laundry service workers here get 120,000/year salary! The tide is turning though and world's biggest quarry is in trouble.....since China problems are looming more profoundly on Australian economy (China sneezes and Australia catches a nasty cold) more people are looking towards other industries i.e. services, tech, medical and those who used to make a tidy profit in the mines are being let go due to slumping iron ore pricing and weakened demand. In the space of last 12 months iron ore price was cut in half. Add world's most expensive housing prices, climate issues, stalling economy, bogan attitudes (less so with the influx of educated migrants) etc. and Australia has its own share of issues to deal with. All things considered though, I would never want to go back to Europe or move to US. Why? To name a few: stable democratic government, great lifestyle, far away from some of the the loony bins e.g. Putin or not sharing borders with other countries (can get pretty lonely here at times though as to get anywhere is a minimum 10 hours flight), good pay and social support system, lots of nationalities in bigger cities so racial tensions are rare (we all just seem to get along), warm weather etc. Why would I want to live anywhere else? Yes, I could make more money in US, be more culturally aware/inspired in Europe, have cheaper lifestyle in Asia (south-east) etc. but when you look at what's really important in life and narrow it down to a dozen or so factors, especially if having a family is a prospect, nothing comes close to living Downunder. Even Kiwis want to live here! And that comes from someone who lived (at least 16 months) on every continent, except Antarctica and Africa.
avn2109 10y ago
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, my friend. I've been seriously contemplating for about a year now whether America is a sinking ship and it's time to leave and head back across the pond.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  The grass is always greener in someone else's yard, and the mold is always greener on someone else's bread. We over-estimate both how good and how bad others have it.
dismal2 10y ago
the world is a sinking capitalist ship, go to where the capitalists have already left
- testrun 10y ago
  Where is it and what would you find there?

by hebdo 10y ago

Spooky23 10y ago

Europe made a decision to move away from that history to something more like the US. Swedes and French don't have children, and they are importing Syrians and Africans who do. It's a similar scenario to what happened with the old Dutch and English people in 1860 Manhattan. The new masses of Irish and Jews drove many to leave. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but the future will be very different.

charlesdm 10y ago

Why would you leave Europe? Due to the developments in the last few years?

tomp 10y ago

Where would you want to go? In the US, you're more likely to be killed by a cop than by a terrorist in Europe. Japan is peaceful for now, but has its own problems - rising tensions with China, proximity of North Korea, low economic opportunity. Same goes for most other developed Asian countries. Africa, Middle East, Russia, most of Asia and South America are less developed (AFAIK), in terms of social cohesion, healthcare, economic opportunity. The best options seem to be Australia and New Zealand, they are English-speaking, highly developed, peaceful, lawful and, most importantly, far away - a problem for some (e.g. if you have family members in other countries), but in case of major conflict, it will probably be a good idea. All in all, some perspective is in order. Europe is probably the strongest it's been in the past 100 years. There are 300 million inhabitants, so even 1M migrants is a drop in the bucket. There are no immediate threats from other nation-states, except possibly for a few countries bordering Russia - although even they seem focused more on the Middle East recently. Most European countries still have the strongest social security. On the other hand, the unexpected is just that, by definition. Chances are low, but it's possible that some crazy person does something crazy (Putin? Erdogan? A right-wing EU leader?). But that's true pretty much anywhere in the world.

abrookewood 10y ago
Yeah, but in Australia we have sharks, snakes, spiders and drop bears .. don't forget the drop bears. Plus, our Internet is crappy (unless you're on the National Broadband Network) and we are something of a nanny state. Oh, and our housing is ridiculously expensive. But apart from that, everything is pretty good.
- newjersey 10y ago
  My friends in Australia say it's economy is too reliant on mining and raw exports and that there is not enough value added exports. Is this not a common view in Australia?
  - usert1763 10y ago
    That would be correct......to an extent. I moved to Australia around 10 years ago (originally from Poland but traveled the world extensively) and worked in tech since then wishing I did a course in welding or heavy machinery operation instead. Even mining laundry service workers here get 120,000/year salary! The tide is turning though and world's biggest quarry is in trouble.....since China problems are looming more profoundly on Australian economy (China sneezes and Australia catches a nasty cold) more people are looking towards other industries i.e. services, tech, medical and those who used to make a tidy profit in the mines are being let go due to slumping iron ore pricing and weakened demand. In the space of last 12 months iron ore price was cut in half. Add world's most expensive housing prices, climate issues, stalling economy, bogan attitudes (less so with the influx of educated migrants) etc. and Australia has its own share of issues to deal with. All things considered though, I would never want to go back to Europe or move to US. Why? To name a few: stable democratic government, great lifestyle, far away from some of the the loony bins e.g. Putin or not sharing borders with other countries (can get pretty lonely here at times though as to get anywhere is a minimum 10 hours flight), good pay and social support system, lots of nationalities in bigger cities so racial tensions are rare (we all just seem to get along), warm weather etc. Why would I want to live anywhere else? Yes, I could make more money in US, be more culturally aware/inspired in Europe, have cheaper lifestyle in Asia (south-east) etc. but when you look at what's really important in life and narrow it down to a dozen or so factors, especially if having a family is a prospect, nothing comes close to living Downunder. Even Kiwis want to live here! And that comes from someone who lived (at least 16 months) on every continent, except Antarctica and Africa.

avn2109 10y ago

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, my friend. I've been seriously contemplating for about a year now whether America is a sinking ship and it's time to leave and head back across the pond.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago
The grass is always greener in someone else's yard, and the mold is always greener on someone else's bread. We over-estimate both how good and how bad others have it.

dismal2 10y ago

the world is a sinking capitalist ship, go to where the capitalists have already left

testrun 10y ago
Where is it and what would you find there?