4 ms·

Unlike most of the other commenters, I'm not a huge fan of this article. From the article, it seems the author hasn't really experienced much, if any, gender di

by wmsiler 11y ago

Unlike most of the other commenters, I'm not a huge fan of this article. From the article, it seems the author hasn't really experienced much, if any, gender discrimination at work. That's great; it really is refreshing to hear stories of women in tech who are judged purely on their merits, as they should be. However, her two takeaways from her experience are, "your skills will speak louder than your gender," and, "to become a female developer, you only have to do what any other smart dev would do...[i.e. work hard]." I think the problem is precisely that many women have found these statements to be false. Many women that are smart devs have gone into the tech sector with good skills, but found that they are still judged unfairly by their gender. The fact that this women hasn't experienced that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist for others. Also, the claim that if you work hard and have good skills, then your gender won't matter has the (probably unintended) implication that if you do find others discriminating against your based on your gender, then you must not have the skills or the work ethic. I really don't know to what extent gender discrimination exists in the tech sector, but I think we should be careful to avoid over generalizing from individual experiences and we should be especially careful not to suggest that discrimination only happens to the developers whose skills aren't good enough to overcome other people's stereotypes.

profeta 11y ago
well, on the other hand, the toxic environment you describe would be also weird for men that do not want to participate on it. i still haven't found it on tech (i did when i was working on a news room, and i quit, as did a lot of people of all genders, because toxic is toxic. i will not blame the whole gender/race/religion of the few that throve there, but the individuals)
mattlondon 11y ago
Fan or not, increasing awareness of the issue and getting people to become more aware of any unconscious biases they hold is crucial. The fact you're reading it, digesting it, and we're discussing it can only be a positive thing.
groovy2shoes 11y ago
I agree. At the same time, I get the feeling that the west coast must be a very different place compared to the east coast. I've worked for six different employers in the tech scene here on the east coast, and I've yet to see any sort of gender discrimination in the workplace. I'm not denying that it happens, because I'm sure that it does. But either it's far more frequent or much more overt in other parts of the world.
- eevilspock 11y ago
  > I've yet to see any sort of gender discrimination in the workplace You're a man. I'm not sure you're in the best position to see.
  - monksy 11y ago
    > You're a man. I'm not sure you're in the best position to see. I found the sexism right there. ("Is man must not be able to see or have valid experiences.")
    - Frondo 11y ago
      Well, of course a man can have valid experiences. A man can't have the experience of being a woman, though, pretty much by definition. That's not sexism, the claim that a man can't experience life as a woman would. In fact, that seems like a really uncontroversial statement.
      - adevine 11y ago
        I thought there was a fascinating response to a Reddit question a couple years ago by a transgendered woman that asked "How did people react to you after you transitioned?" She said that, as a man, people were much more likely to show interest in her ideas, and she was much more likely to receive praise from customers at her job (IIRC she worked at Subway). As a woman, people were much more interested to hear her talk about her emotions than when she was a man. I thought it was very interesting, because she essentially "served as her own control." The only thing that changed in the situation was how people perceived her gender - the ideas, feelings and performance were from the exact same person. It certainly made me reflect more on unconscious biases I might have.
mamoswined 11y ago
Being female, and a developer, and having worked in several other fields, I think people overestimate the sexism in tech and underestimate it elsewhere. I'm ashamed to say I was one of the "who needs feminism?" women in my late teens and early twenties because I have had a good experience in tech. Then I took a journalism job...and actually experienced it for myself and saw so many other women experience it. Sexism is everywhere, at least in tech there is a fair amount of awareness that it's at least an issue. In writing I found it was just taken for granted. And in writing/journalism I found it way more depressing to see SO many women as a total percentage of the profession and then the gender breakdown of the people in charge. In tech there aren't that many of us, but almost all the ones I know are in good positions.
- MollyR 11y ago
  Interesting point, I had the vague feeling as well, that sexism in tech is much lower than other fields. I never really felt discriminated against in tech, people went out of their way to help me. Biology was a totally different story. I couldn't tell if it was cause I was a woman, or because I didn't have a md or phd.
- cableshaft 11y ago
  According to my girlfriend (who's in corporate real estate), the sexism is pretty rampant in her field also, and some of the stories I've heard from her surprise the hell out of me, because I've never heard of anything that bad in tech. Especially since most of it is perpetuated by people in management in her field, not young guys that don't really know how to communicate with anyone properly, let alone women, as it tends to be in tech fields.
  - mamoswined 11y ago
    I think one of the reasons sexism in tech gets so much press is paradoxically because developers/project managers/etc. are in such high demand. You can quit and write a Medium post about how awful your job was and still be able to get work. You have a ton of power in this way. In real estate, journalism, PR, etc. it's so tight knit and competitive that speaking out can destroy your career. I merely quit a journalism job because of an awful EIC and didn't say anything publicly against him, but he was eventually fired and blamed me (though a lot of people had complained to HR about him and it wasn't just about sexism). I really doubt I could even freelance for many local publications because of it because they are all run by his friends and it's not that hard to find another writer.

by wmsiler 11y ago

profeta 11y ago

well, on the other hand, the toxic environment you describe would be also weird for men that do not want to participate on it. i still haven't found it on tech (i did when i was working on a news room, and i quit, as did a lot of people of all genders, because toxic is toxic. i will not blame the whole gender/race/religion of the few that throve there, but the individuals)

mattlondon 11y ago

Fan or not, increasing awareness of the issue and getting people to become more aware of any unconscious biases they hold is crucial. The fact you're reading it, digesting it, and we're discussing it can only be a positive thing.

groovy2shoes 11y ago

I agree. At the same time, I get the feeling that the west coast must be a very different place compared to the east coast. I've worked for six different employers in the tech scene here on the east coast, and I've yet to see any sort of gender discrimination in the workplace. I'm not denying that it happens, because I'm sure that it does. But either it's far more frequent or much more overt in other parts of the world.

eevilspock 11y ago
> I've yet to see any sort of gender discrimination in the workplace You're a man. I'm not sure you're in the best position to see.
- monksy 11y ago
  > You're a man. I'm not sure you're in the best position to see. I found the sexism right there. ("Is man must not be able to see or have valid experiences.")
  - Frondo 11y ago
    Well, of course a man can have valid experiences. A man can't have the experience of being a woman, though, pretty much by definition. That's not sexism, the claim that a man can't experience life as a woman would. In fact, that seems like a really uncontroversial statement.
    - adevine 11y ago
      I thought there was a fascinating response to a Reddit question a couple years ago by a transgendered woman that asked "How did people react to you after you transitioned?" She said that, as a man, people were much more likely to show interest in her ideas, and she was much more likely to receive praise from customers at her job (IIRC she worked at Subway). As a woman, people were much more interested to hear her talk about her emotions than when she was a man. I thought it was very interesting, because she essentially "served as her own control." The only thing that changed in the situation was how people perceived her gender - the ideas, feelings and performance were from the exact same person. It certainly made me reflect more on unconscious biases I might have.

mamoswined 11y ago

Being female, and a developer, and having worked in several other fields, I think people overestimate the sexism in tech and underestimate it elsewhere. I'm ashamed to say I was one of the "who needs feminism?" women in my late teens and early twenties because I have had a good experience in tech. Then I took a journalism job...and actually experienced it for myself and saw so many other women experience it. Sexism is everywhere, at least in tech there is a fair amount of awareness that it's at least an issue. In writing I found it was just taken for granted. And in writing/journalism I found it way more depressing to see SO many women as a total percentage of the profession and then the gender breakdown of the people in charge. In tech there aren't that many of us, but almost all the ones I know are in good positions.

MollyR 11y ago
Interesting point, I had the vague feeling as well, that sexism in tech is much lower than other fields. I never really felt discriminated against in tech, people went out of their way to help me. Biology was a totally different story. I couldn't tell if it was cause I was a woman, or because I didn't have a md or phd.
cableshaft 11y ago
According to my girlfriend (who's in corporate real estate), the sexism is pretty rampant in her field also, and some of the stories I've heard from her surprise the hell out of me, because I've never heard of anything that bad in tech. Especially since most of it is perpetuated by people in management in her field, not young guys that don't really know how to communicate with anyone properly, let alone women, as it tends to be in tech fields.
- mamoswined 11y ago
  I think one of the reasons sexism in tech gets so much press is paradoxically because developers/project managers/etc. are in such high demand. You can quit and write a Medium post about how awful your job was and still be able to get work. You have a ton of power in this way. In real estate, journalism, PR, etc. it's so tight knit and competitive that speaking out can destroy your career. I merely quit a journalism job because of an awful EIC and didn't say anything publicly against him, but he was eventually fired and blamed me (though a lot of people had complained to HR about him and it wasn't just about sexism). I really doubt I could even freelance for many local publications because of it because they are all run by his friends and it's not that hard to find another writer.