5 ms·

>perhaps you've had a string of very bad ones. The "no true manager" argument is always brought out when I say something critical of the management profession.

>perhaps you've had a string of very bad ones. The "no true manager" argument is always brought out when I say something critical of the management profession. >Power isn't the benefit of the role unless you're a sociopath or an asshole. I agree. Guess who inevitably fills management jobs at medium to large companies.

hibikir 11y ago
It's well known that companies quickly turn south around bad manager, if just because they can't retain good talent. But that doesn't make all managers bad: Good ones are rare, and their people know it. For instance, I just left a well paying job at a very large company because my manager quit: he though no initiative could never be successful in the internal political climate, so he left despite being offered a big promotion. Since he left, the company had 6 high profile resignations, as we all knew the alternatives the head of IT was considering were just bad managers. Now, with tentpole technical people leaving, a lot of other qualified people are looking for new jobs too: It was quality leadership that was bringing the team together. Really, your original comment on this topic would be 100% fair if you were describing what this company is going to end up with. I have worked for horrible, horrible managers over the years. It's just that once you have seen good management, and understand the wonders of productivity one of those can achieve, it's just very hard to agree with a view quite as dire as yours. There's all this companies that are working on helping recruit good developers: In my experience, good developers are not really THAT hard to find: But a company that could help hire good managers, and properly identify the people that have management qualities in our office, as opposed to just those that look and sound managerial? Now that's a company that would be worth hiring.
yongjik 11y ago
It's not a "no true Scotsman" argument when there are ample examples of true Scotsmen. Larry Page, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs, for starters.
mabbo 11y ago
> The "no true manager" argument is always brought out That's a fair point- I won't say there aren't any bad managers- there are sociopaths attracted to the field. But I don't think you've met any of the good ones either. I'm sorry to hear that. > Guess who inevitably fills management jobs at medium to large companies. The sociopath-style manager will only have short-term gains compared to the managers who've acquired the skill set for the domain. One's people will be unhappy and quit; the other's will stay and encourage friends to join. After a few years of this, when upper management want to promote to a manager-of-managers, the long-term results will speak for themselves. That's how I lost my best manager- he succeeded so widely that he was promoted up another level (where he continued to do very well). My advice to you is to consider how you would behave as a manager. How would you run a team of ICs such that they'd be happy, productive, and meeting all goals? It's not about whether you'd want to or not, it's how you'd approach the problem.
- codeonfire 11y ago
  > the long-term results will speak for themselves. No they won't because corporate management creates perverse policies of continuous turnover and stack ranking for this exact reason. Losing all your people many times over in a short time is just portrayed as a sign of a good manager culling the herd.
  - mabbo 11y ago
    Well, my experience has been different than yours. Perhaps you haven't worked at a company that values good leadership.

hibikir 11y ago

It's well known that companies quickly turn south around bad manager, if just because they can't retain good talent. But that doesn't make all managers bad: Good ones are rare, and their people know it. For instance, I just left a well paying job at a very large company because my manager quit: he though no initiative could never be successful in the internal political climate, so he left despite being offered a big promotion. Since he left, the company had 6 high profile resignations, as we all knew the alternatives the head of IT was considering were just bad managers. Now, with tentpole technical people leaving, a lot of other qualified people are looking for new jobs too: It was quality leadership that was bringing the team together. Really, your original comment on this topic would be 100% fair if you were describing what this company is going to end up with. I have worked for horrible, horrible managers over the years. It's just that once you have seen good management, and understand the wonders of productivity one of those can achieve, it's just very hard to agree with a view quite as dire as yours. There's all this companies that are working on helping recruit good developers: In my experience, good developers are not really THAT hard to find: But a company that could help hire good managers, and properly identify the people that have management qualities in our office, as opposed to just those that look and sound managerial? Now that's a company that would be worth hiring.

yongjik 11y ago

It's not a "no true Scotsman" argument when there are ample examples of true Scotsmen. Larry Page, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs, for starters.

mabbo 11y ago

> The "no true manager" argument is always brought out That's a fair point- I won't say there aren't any bad managers- there are sociopaths attracted to the field. But I don't think you've met any of the good ones either. I'm sorry to hear that. > Guess who inevitably fills management jobs at medium to large companies. The sociopath-style manager will only have short-term gains compared to the managers who've acquired the skill set for the domain. One's people will be unhappy and quit; the other's will stay and encourage friends to join. After a few years of this, when upper management want to promote to a manager-of-managers, the long-term results will speak for themselves. That's how I lost my best manager- he succeeded so widely that he was promoted up another level (where he continued to do very well). My advice to you is to consider how you would behave as a manager. How would you run a team of ICs such that they'd be happy, productive, and meeting all goals? It's not about whether you'd want to or not, it's how you'd approach the problem.

codeonfire 11y ago
> the long-term results will speak for themselves. No they won't because corporate management creates perverse policies of continuous turnover and stack ranking for this exact reason. Losing all your people many times over in a short time is just portrayed as a sign of a good manager culling the herd.
- mabbo 11y ago
  Well, my experience has been different than yours. Perhaps you haven't worked at a company that values good leadership.