7 ms·

Can Empathy Scale to the Internet?

21 points by fredfoobar42 11y ago

lumpypua 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline... Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."
- DoubleMalt 11y ago
  I have to write an article with the headline "Is Betteridge's Law Universal?"
  - jasonkostempski 11y ago
    [1] "Was Betteridge right?" http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2013/03/18/was-betteridge-right/ http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2013/03/18/was-betteridge-righ...
LesZedCB 11y ago
Honestly, I see this internet counterculture as a mirror of what is happening in the real world as a more mainstream reactionary shift to the right, due to a number of recent progressive movements heading the opposite direction.
anotherhacker 11y ago
This person doesn't understand what empathy is. Empathy is a slow process of analyzing someone's emotional state so you can affect it. E.g. The Nazis were excellent empathizers. Rockets and dive bombers (Stuka) had sirens to intimate. The battle of Britain was a psychological one-and it almost worked. Prisoners were told to "remember your locker number" as they were ushered into gas chambers. Don't confuse empathy with responsiveness, sympathy or compassion. We already have words for those. Learn more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U http://www.selfpsychologypsychoanalysis.org/empathy-mis.shtml http://www.selfpsychologypsychoanalysis.org/empathy-mis.shtm...
- LesZedCB 11y ago
  > Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. I don't really agree. What you are describing sounds like social engineering, which certainly requires a sensitivity to empathy. Either way, your argument is about a trivial difference, and they still had good things to say on the subject.
  - anotherhacker 11y ago
    Your agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. Did you watch the video? Did you read the link? Obviously not. If you had, you would have listened to Heinz Kohut talk about how empathy is misused. Empathy is an informer for action-it has nothing to do with "connecting with people" I also take it you don't know who Heinz Kohut is. Which means you're not educated in psychology. Anyone with any kind of decent education will study Kohut just as much as Freud or Skinner.
    - LesZedCB 11y ago
      No, i'm not educated in psychology. I don't see how that is even remotely relevant in a conversation about how to connect with people across screens and digital displays...
    - danharaj 11y ago
      I think you should stop confusing words and their denotations. If one person uses a word to mean one thing, and another uses a word to mean another, perhaps similar thing, that is not in of itself "wrong". Words don't care how they are used. "You're all using this word wrong" can only come across as comical or annoying.
    - hueving 11y ago
      >means you're not educated in psychology Probably a good thing since it's turning out that the whole field is filled with junk science.
- forgottenpass 11y ago
  This person doesn't understand what empathy is. They might get it better than you do. "Empathy" is the liberal word for the kinds of compassion that make people tolerant (for progressive values of compassion and tolerance ofc). For talking about "empathy" this article is oddly and conspicuously broadcasting their political leaning. Why would OP choose to name the anti-abuse organization and support group that they did? Neither of which are known for their track record nor social work experts on staff. They're known solely because of the internet personalities at their helms.
6d0debc071 11y ago
The problem when you start throwing around empathy alongside such concepts as 'helping' abusers 'mend their ways' is that one rather feels that anyone whose views do not rather closely match your own political angle, especially with respect an issue you are deeply invested in, will be singled out for this 'help.' Being offended has become a weapon in popular debate - and I find myself remarkably disinclined to further structure things to its advantage.
puredemo 11y ago
Yep. Personally, I could not care less when violent criminals like Michael Brown get shot by the police. Fewer violent criminals is a good thing. Articles like this presume I must lack empathy because of that view. Well, I have plenty of empathy for my friends, co-workers and inner circles. That empathy simply doesn't extend to violent criminals who constantly make society worse, those who would rob or harm my family in a minute if they could. Empathy is a biological adaptation to help us get along with people who are the closest to us, within our own tribe. It doesn't need to be extended willy-nilly onto every thief and violent actor across the globe. That's simply being an enabler. Bring on the disdain because I don't agree with the shallow indoctrination of, "WE NEED TO LOVE EVERYONE." ;)
- mmoche 11y ago
  Your conclusion is worrisome. Lots of people, and lots of groups of people, have been considered "violent criminals" despite being neither violent nor criminals. I can understand why worldwide empathy is a good thing regardless of how it could, conceivably, benefit those who would use it for nefarious purposes.
- sehr 11y ago
  Just a heads up: Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - puredemo 11y ago
    I changed the downvote line, thanks.
    - dang 11y ago
      The other things in your comment that are problematic are its casual tossing of flamewar material and its tedious posturing against ideological enemies. Please edit such stuff out of your comments when posting to HN. It breaks the site guidelines and obscures any substance in what you're saying. For example, you would had a fine comment about the limits of empathy if you had simply eliminated this dross. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10926249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10926249 and marked it off-topic.
l33tbro 11y ago
The emotional maturity of humans creeps at a sloths waddle, while technological maturity moves like quicksilver. The virtuality roll-out will be interesting.
cuckcuckspruce 11y ago
My main problem with this article is the following: >We’re all to blame at some level, and we’re all responsible for finding a solution. This seems to blow away the entire premise of the article. This is either massive victim blaming or massively blaming everybody for the actions of a few. It's victim blaming if you're saying that people who are harassed online are responsible for their own harassment, and it's blaming everybody for the actions of a few if you're saying that unconnected parties are responsible. This is not a new problem. Harassing phone calls, hate mail, and insults have existed long before the Internet, World Wide Web, and social media have existed. Could Empathy Scale to the Telegraph? I don't know, but I have a feeling that the answer to that is the same as the answer to this question.
JoshCole 11y ago
Sure it can scale to the internet; it scales implicitly, some people just don't realize it. Jesus Christ calls his word truth. And in one of his sermons he says, therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. And here is a prophet showing what that can look like; It looks to me like empathy for another side with which you even have justification in disagreeing with is fairly important: And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him. Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him. Then he found another man, and said, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man smote him, so that in smiting he wounded him. So the prophet departed, and waited for the king by the way, and disguised himself with ashes upon his face. And as the king passed by, he cried unto the king: and he said, Thy servant went out into the midst of the battle; and, behold, a man turned aside, and brought a man unto me, and said, Keep this man: if by any means he be missing, then shall thy life be for his life, or else thou shalt pay a talent of silver. And as thy servant was busy here and there, he was gone. And the king of Israel said unto him, So shall thy judgment be; thyself hast decided it. And he hasted, and took the ashes away from his face; and the king of Israel discerned him that he was of the prophets. And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people. And the king of Israel went to his house heavy and displeased, and came to Samaria.
dawnbreez 11y ago
Article seems biased, but has a true point--it's easy to forget who you are, and easier to forget who you're talking to. Sometimes this helps, such as with criticism. It's a bit harder to give criticism in person because of the social pressure of being nice; it's much easier to criticise someone who can't slap you, and that means finding more critiques. More critiques, however, doesn't mean better ones. It's very easy to dehumanize your partner in argument, which leads to a "they're evil, I'm good" perspective, which leads to more extreme (and more wrong) viewpoints over time. In short, the article suffers from the very problem it complains about; that anonymity, which is bemoaned for producing Gamergate, is in turn what makes it possible to villainize Gamergate.

21 points by fredfoobar42 11y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline... Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

DoubleMalt 11y ago
I have to write an article with the headline "Is Betteridge's Law Universal?"
- jasonkostempski 11y ago
  [1] "Was Betteridge right?" http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2013/03/18/was-betteridge-right/ http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2013/03/18/was-betteridge-righ...

LesZedCB 11y ago

Honestly, I see this internet counterculture as a mirror of what is happening in the real world as a more mainstream reactionary shift to the right, due to a number of recent progressive movements heading the opposite direction.

anotherhacker 11y ago

This person doesn't understand what empathy is. Empathy is a slow process of analyzing someone's emotional state so you can affect it. E.g. The Nazis were excellent empathizers. Rockets and dive bombers (Stuka) had sirens to intimate. The battle of Britain was a psychological one-and it almost worked. Prisoners were told to "remember your locker number" as they were ushered into gas chambers. Don't confuse empathy with responsiveness, sympathy or compassion. We already have words for those. Learn more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U http://www.selfpsychologypsychoanalysis.org/empathy-mis.shtml http://www.selfpsychologypsychoanalysis.org/empathy-mis.shtm...

LesZedCB 11y ago
> Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. I don't really agree. What you are describing sounds like social engineering, which certainly requires a sensitivity to empathy. Either way, your argument is about a trivial difference, and they still had good things to say on the subject.
- anotherhacker 11y ago
  Your agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. Did you watch the video? Did you read the link? Obviously not. If you had, you would have listened to Heinz Kohut talk about how empathy is misused. Empathy is an informer for action-it has nothing to do with "connecting with people" I also take it you don't know who Heinz Kohut is. Which means you're not educated in psychology. Anyone with any kind of decent education will study Kohut just as much as Freud or Skinner.
  - LesZedCB 11y ago
    No, i'm not educated in psychology. I don't see how that is even remotely relevant in a conversation about how to connect with people across screens and digital displays...
  - danharaj 11y ago
    I think you should stop confusing words and their denotations. If one person uses a word to mean one thing, and another uses a word to mean another, perhaps similar thing, that is not in of itself "wrong". Words don't care how they are used. "You're all using this word wrong" can only come across as comical or annoying.
  - hueving 11y ago
    >means you're not educated in psychology Probably a good thing since it's turning out that the whole field is filled with junk science.
forgottenpass 11y ago
This person doesn't understand what empathy is. They might get it better than you do. "Empathy" is the liberal word for the kinds of compassion that make people tolerant (for progressive values of compassion and tolerance ofc). For talking about "empathy" this article is oddly and conspicuously broadcasting their political leaning. Why would OP choose to name the anti-abuse organization and support group that they did? Neither of which are known for their track record nor social work experts on staff. They're known solely because of the internet personalities at their helms.

6d0debc071 11y ago

The problem when you start throwing around empathy alongside such concepts as 'helping' abusers 'mend their ways' is that one rather feels that anyone whose views do not rather closely match your own political angle, especially with respect an issue you are deeply invested in, will be singled out for this 'help.' Being offended has become a weapon in popular debate - and I find myself remarkably disinclined to further structure things to its advantage.

puredemo 11y ago

Yep. Personally, I could not care less when violent criminals like Michael Brown get shot by the police. Fewer violent criminals is a good thing. Articles like this presume I must lack empathy because of that view. Well, I have plenty of empathy for my friends, co-workers and inner circles. That empathy simply doesn't extend to violent criminals who constantly make society worse, those who would rob or harm my family in a minute if they could. Empathy is a biological adaptation to help us get along with people who are the closest to us, within our own tribe. It doesn't need to be extended willy-nilly onto every thief and violent actor across the globe. That's simply being an enabler. Bring on the disdain because I don't agree with the shallow indoctrination of, "WE NEED TO LOVE EVERYONE." ;)

mmoche 11y ago
Your conclusion is worrisome. Lots of people, and lots of groups of people, have been considered "violent criminals" despite being neither violent nor criminals. I can understand why worldwide empathy is a good thing regardless of how it could, conceivably, benefit those who would use it for nefarious purposes.
sehr 11y ago
Just a heads up: Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- puredemo 11y ago
  I changed the downvote line, thanks.
  - dang 11y ago
    The other things in your comment that are problematic are its casual tossing of flamewar material and its tedious posturing against ideological enemies. Please edit such stuff out of your comments when posting to HN. It breaks the site guidelines and obscures any substance in what you're saying. For example, you would had a fine comment about the limits of empathy if you had simply eliminated this dross. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10926249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10926249 and marked it off-topic.

l33tbro 11y ago

The emotional maturity of humans creeps at a sloths waddle, while technological maturity moves like quicksilver. The virtuality roll-out will be interesting.

cuckcuckspruce 11y ago

My main problem with this article is the following: >We’re all to blame at some level, and we’re all responsible for finding a solution. This seems to blow away the entire premise of the article. This is either massive victim blaming or massively blaming everybody for the actions of a few. It's victim blaming if you're saying that people who are harassed online are responsible for their own harassment, and it's blaming everybody for the actions of a few if you're saying that unconnected parties are responsible. This is not a new problem. Harassing phone calls, hate mail, and insults have existed long before the Internet, World Wide Web, and social media have existed. Could Empathy Scale to the Telegraph? I don't know, but I have a feeling that the answer to that is the same as the answer to this question.

JoshCole 11y ago

Sure it can scale to the internet; it scales implicitly, some people just don't realize it. Jesus Christ calls his word truth. And in one of his sermons he says, therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. And here is a prophet showing what that can look like; It looks to me like empathy for another side with which you even have justification in disagreeing with is fairly important: And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him. Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him. Then he found another man, and said, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man smote him, so that in smiting he wounded him. So the prophet departed, and waited for the king by the way, and disguised himself with ashes upon his face. And as the king passed by, he cried unto the king: and he said, Thy servant went out into the midst of the battle; and, behold, a man turned aside, and brought a man unto me, and said, Keep this man: if by any means he be missing, then shall thy life be for his life, or else thou shalt pay a talent of silver. And as thy servant was busy here and there, he was gone. And the king of Israel said unto him, So shall thy judgment be; thyself hast decided it. And he hasted, and took the ashes away from his face; and the king of Israel discerned him that he was of the prophets. And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people. And the king of Israel went to his house heavy and displeased, and came to Samaria.

dawnbreez 11y ago

Article seems biased, but has a true point--it's easy to forget who you are, and easier to forget who you're talking to. Sometimes this helps, such as with criticism. It's a bit harder to give criticism in person because of the social pressure of being nice; it's much easier to criticise someone who can't slap you, and that means finding more critiques. More critiques, however, doesn't mean better ones. It's very easy to dehumanize your partner in argument, which leads to a "they're evil, I'm good" perspective, which leads to more extreme (and more wrong) viewpoints over time. In short, the article suffers from the very problem it complains about; that anonymity, which is bemoaned for producing Gamergate, is in turn what makes it possible to villainize Gamergate.