6 ms·

hi! i totally know this is a common feel for many npmjs users. this is why i've been running an empathy campaign for Windows, Windows Wednesday, where i do all

by ag_dubs 11y ago

hi! i totally know this is a common feel for many npmjs users. this is why i've been running an empathy campaign for Windows, Windows Wednesday, where i do all my work (with/for npm) on windows. it's been good for finding bugs, either technical or UX. i'm working on improving the docs to make them friendlier to all platforms (not just OSX, which is the most common platform at npmjs). npmjs cares about the enterprise + windows.

city41 11y ago
I think this is the wrong approach. We shouldn't pick up MS's slack, MS should. This just enforces the current situation and keeps enabling MS to ignore the problem.
- gelasio 11y ago
  So, are you of the opinion that OSS projects should never be built for any commercial, proprietary OS or just Windows (i.e. because it's not Unix)? For instance - OS X window managers suck. Do you think that a project like Spectacle should have never been built because they're just picking up Apple's slack?
  - city41 11y ago
    I don't see how a project like Spectacle, which is OSX specific, relates. If someone wants to make an OS specific project, more power to them. The issue arises on platforms that span OSes, and they just never quite span onto Windows correctly. Microsoft is very happy that Node, Java, Clojure, etc work on Windows. It helps them a lot. But they make little to no effort to help bridge the gap, they usually leave that to everyone else. That's my gripe, right there. And to be fair, this is not a black and white situation. It's complex and Microsoft's role in all of this is complex too. And sometimes this issue does crop up on other OSes, for example Docker on OSX is sometimes a little painful.
    - gelasio 11y ago
      "But they make little to no effort to help bridge the gap, they usually leave that to everyone else." OK, but that's also where you're wrong, right there. In general, but also particularly for this exact issue - Microsoft considered attempting to fix the file path limit for the first release of Windows 10. Maybe you don't understand, but it's going to take a herculean effort to fix this. They want to do it and if you need proof of that I can find posts of them talking about what I just said.
      - martindevans 11y ago
        Don't UNC paths solve this problem already (30000+ char limit)?
        tracker1 11y ago
        The problem is the default/legacy APIs don't use the new paths... in .Net I had this problem a lot, and serious issues every method I tried to work around it would hard crash VS, let alone the application I was working on... in the end, after days trying the solution was to say f*ck it and just put the directory I was working with closer to the root of the drive in question. Why they can't fix .Net under the covers to use UNC in windows to avoid the class of problem I don't know, understand or comprehend... and that's just one very common platform for windows. I would say the same for npm/node and libuv for that matter. I use bash a lot in windows (installed with msysgit), and that's got it's own set of problems. More problematic is the number of node modules that rely on bash scripts for builds, that don't work at all in windows.... which makes it very hard to contribute.
    - nawitus 11y ago
      I believe Microsoft worked to get Node.js supported on Windows.
      - steveklabnik 11y ago
        Not just that, but they're working on making Node work with Chakra.
- steveklabnik 11y ago
  What problem is that? That they have a different operating system? npm is also a bit different, in your objection: they're a company. Companies need users. Supporting more platforms to get more users seems like pretty much, well, business as usual.
  - city41 11y ago
    That is a fair point. npm being a company does change the situation.
- ag_dubs 11y ago
  you might also consider the fact that OSX machines are expensive. and the education for learning linux is generally expensive or not accessible. so supporting windows also supports ... poor people, people from different countries that have different economies, etc. should we not pick up capitalism's slack? capitalism sure isn't going to pick up its own slack, err... systemic method of restricting underprivileged/poor people's access to power.
  - fapjacks 11y ago
    > the education for learning linux is generally expensive or not accessible Wow, this is incredibly wrong. The cost of education to learn Linux is living in a country where you are likely to be literate and have access to a computer. That is literally the cost to learn Linux, guy. There is nothing like an MSDN subscription for Linux documentation.

by ag_dubs 11y ago

city41 11y ago

I think this is the wrong approach. We shouldn't pick up MS's slack, MS should. This just enforces the current situation and keeps enabling MS to ignore the problem.

gelasio 11y ago
So, are you of the opinion that OSS projects should never be built for any commercial, proprietary OS or just Windows (i.e. because it's not Unix)? For instance - OS X window managers suck. Do you think that a project like Spectacle should have never been built because they're just picking up Apple's slack?
- city41 11y ago
  I don't see how a project like Spectacle, which is OSX specific, relates. If someone wants to make an OS specific project, more power to them. The issue arises on platforms that span OSes, and they just never quite span onto Windows correctly. Microsoft is very happy that Node, Java, Clojure, etc work on Windows. It helps them a lot. But they make little to no effort to help bridge the gap, they usually leave that to everyone else. That's my gripe, right there. And to be fair, this is not a black and white situation. It's complex and Microsoft's role in all of this is complex too. And sometimes this issue does crop up on other OSes, for example Docker on OSX is sometimes a little painful.
  - gelasio 11y ago
    "But they make little to no effort to help bridge the gap, they usually leave that to everyone else." OK, but that's also where you're wrong, right there. In general, but also particularly for this exact issue - Microsoft considered attempting to fix the file path limit for the first release of Windows 10. Maybe you don't understand, but it's going to take a herculean effort to fix this. They want to do it and if you need proof of that I can find posts of them talking about what I just said.
    - martindevans 11y ago
      Don't UNC paths solve this problem already (30000+ char limit)?
      - tracker1 11y ago
        The problem is the default/legacy APIs don't use the new paths... in .Net I had this problem a lot, and serious issues every method I tried to work around it would hard crash VS, let alone the application I was working on... in the end, after days trying the solution was to say f*ck it and just put the directory I was working with closer to the root of the drive in question. Why they can't fix .Net under the covers to use UNC in windows to avoid the class of problem I don't know, understand or comprehend... and that's just one very common platform for windows. I would say the same for npm/node and libuv for that matter. I use bash a lot in windows (installed with msysgit), and that's got it's own set of problems. More problematic is the number of node modules that rely on bash scripts for builds, that don't work at all in windows.... which makes it very hard to contribute.
  - nawitus 11y ago
    I believe Microsoft worked to get Node.js supported on Windows.
    - steveklabnik 11y ago
      Not just that, but they're working on making Node work with Chakra.
steveklabnik 11y ago
What problem is that? That they have a different operating system? npm is also a bit different, in your objection: they're a company. Companies need users. Supporting more platforms to get more users seems like pretty much, well, business as usual.
- city41 11y ago
  That is a fair point. npm being a company does change the situation.
ag_dubs 11y ago
you might also consider the fact that OSX machines are expensive. and the education for learning linux is generally expensive or not accessible. so supporting windows also supports ... poor people, people from different countries that have different economies, etc. should we not pick up capitalism's slack? capitalism sure isn't going to pick up its own slack, err... systemic method of restricting underprivileged/poor people's access to power.
- fapjacks 11y ago
  > the education for learning linux is generally expensive or not accessible Wow, this is incredibly wrong. The cost of education to learn Linux is living in a country where you are likely to be literate and have access to a computer. That is literally the cost to learn Linux, guy. There is nothing like an MSDN subscription for Linux documentation.