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That's a very sick and twisted view of the world-- and it is from Karl Marx. The reality is, you make money when you bring happiness to people. You make peopl

by BitGeek 19y ago

That's a very sick and twisted view of the world-- and it is from Karl Marx. The reality is, you make money when you bring happiness to people. You make people happy and they want to give you money they want to buy more of your products because they want to keep being made happy again, or made even more happy. Thus, the happier you make your customers the more money you make. Further, making people happy, and making money are intrinsically moral things. Trading with people is honest and moral. Those who talk of altruism speak of violence. Altruism is the destruction of your self to benefit others. (Literally). Thus socialists throw around the word "altruism" (and "Sacrifice" and a lot of other code words) to try and make it seem moral-- but at the root of it, what they are doing or advocating is putting a gun to your head and taking your money (and your money is just a representation of the labor you put in to earn it.) So, don't you talk to me about morals-- when its clear you are advocating an immoral ideology. The bottom line is this: Free people trade with each other and profit by trades that make people happy. This trade is moral, it is honest, and it is right. It is intrinsically peaceful. Socialists oppose free trade, they believe in forcing people at gun point to "trade" on terms that the socialist approve of. This is not peaceful, this is not moral, and obviously the people who are having their lives threatened are acting under duress--- duress is not compatible with happines. So, the next time you hear "sacrifice" come out of the mouth of a politician -- realize its not him that will be sacrificing-- its you and he's putting a gun to your head to get richer. That is the language of the thief and the looter, the socialist and the immoral. This is so obvious that I shouldn't have to say it-- but its amazing how twisted people's minds get when they are subjected to socialist propaganda day in and day out. To think you just said people doing things that make them happy, because they make them happy is immoral!

BrandonM 19y ago
Wow, this is obviously the viewpoint of someone who is not at all familiar with gift societies, someone who seems to me to be desperately clinging to a dogmatism in order to convince him- or herself that his or her life has been lived in a moral manner. The truth is that it's not all black and white. Socialist != Evil, and Capitalist != Good. You speak of corporations bringing happiness to people, but I would like to point out something that I heard a month or so ago. It used to be that people had necessities and very basic desires which were fulfilled by entrepreneurs (merchants and guildworkers) in a capitalist system. In the present-day US and several other countries, however, that is no longer the case. Companies used to be in the business of manufacturing goods to fulfill needs. Nowadays, they instead manufacture needs to sell goods. Why do you think advertising is such a huge industry? It's all kind of funny when you consider the cycle. The current corporate structure relies on a large amount of drone workers doing the majority of the work for a small cut of the pay. The only way to make these workers do this work that no one in their right mind would do willingly is to pay them. Why do they need that money? To buy the very things that these corporations are telling them that they need to be buying. It's all a crazy, vicious cycle, and I'm afraid that it is the inevitable result of long-term capitalist societies. Do you see anything changing for the better in these regards? In an Anthropology class a few years ago, we talked about studies that some researchers had done in comparing the lives of people in developed countries to hunter-gatherer tribes in South America and Africa. The people in these tribes typically spent 2-3 hours a day to provide their food and shelter, and the rest of the time was spent chatting, telling stories, singing, dancing, sporting, and other tribal activities. I would argue that that is happiness, not going to work 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week so that I can get a new car that gets me to work more comfortably. To compare Open Source software to development at gunpoint is absurd. If I have an interesting idea for a piece of software that I would like to write, I am going to write the software and be very happy to share it with the open source community. This has nothing to do with violence; I have enjoyed the benefits of a completely free computing system with extensive functionality, and I am quite happy to return the favor. This is known as a gift society, not violent, immoral ideologies. And this money-for-happiness equation that you are promoting looks a lot like pie in the sky. I worked for 2 years for a small grocer in a country gas station / food mart. The store had been in his family for something like 40 years, and he served a valuable need to the surrounding community in providing the only gas and groceries for 20 miles around. He and his wife worked long days and were by no means rich, but they made enough to live on. His regular customers knew him by name, and he was a regular bidder at the 4-H auctions every summer. Clearly, in this case, the exchange of money for goods is happy for everyone. Unfortunately, cutthroat companies like Wal-Mart move into town who have no concern for the well-being of the community, doing things like storing materials in parking lots which poison water supplies during rain, avoiding a golf cart security guard in their parking lot even though it has proven to reduce crime to 0%, relying on federal programs to cover worker health benefits, and driving all local businesses out and then moving out when the profit margins are no longer good. So the customers save money, yes, but they lose out in so many other ways. This is the problem with faceless corporations who do not see things at a human level. In summary, my problem is not with capitalism, and I am not a socialist. I merely fear that the inevitable end of capitalism is the type of corporate society that has been steadily evolving in the U.S. and elsewhere, one in which paper and numbers are more important than people.
- BitGeek 19y ago
  "In summary, my problem is not with capitalism, and I am not a socialist. I merely fear that the inevitable end of capitalism is the type of corporate society that has been steadily evolving in the U.S. and elsewhere, one in which paper and numbers are more important than people." You contradict yourself. Obviously you have a problem with capitalism because you beleive people should be forced at gunpoint to live the way you prefer. This is because you value "paper and numbers" more than people. Your idolizing of hunter gatherer societies is the kind of pseudo-science that has always been used to sell socialism. Feel free to quit your job and go find food yourself. In alaska you are free to hunt to feed your family-- subsistence is prtected there (and its a good thing... nothing worse for the environment than environmentalists anyway.) You talk about "Seeing things at a human level" but your idea of the "human level" is sticking a gun in someones face. I never equated open source software wiht development at gunpoint-- so of course you had to say I did to try and make me out as crazy. People who voluntarily open source their software are Capitalists -- they are profiting (exploiting in your parlance) the works of thousands who decide to contribute to their open source software. No, the violence ocmes in when you insist that companies must be restrained and people must be restrained from freely trading for each toher. becauss of your pretend care for their spirit "So the customers save money, yes, but they lose out in so many other ways." When you force walmart to stay out of your town-- you are using a gun to deny poor people the ability to feed themselves. You, my freind, are a socialist. The spew of your post is pure socialist drivel. Its nonsense... and as long as socialists like you continue to spout hateful anti-human nonsense like that, I'll be asking the questiosn you can't answer. Like: Why not let people live in peace? Why do you insist on using violence to force people to live according to your (ignorant) ideas?
  - BrandonM 19y ago
    Wow, I can clearly see that it was a mistake to reply to your comment. This is pointless...
    - BitGeek 19y ago
      Yeah, the matrix has you.
themotie 19y ago
You seem to labor under a few misconceptions. Sure, you CAN make money while bringing happiness to the people. As long as it doesn't touch you bottom line, that is. There is a landmark legal case from 1916 (Dodge vs Ford), that's now codified in most countries, that's illustrative of corporations priorities. Ford (the man) wanted to use some of his company's huge profits to do good and make the customers happy. He paid his workers more than the going rate and reduced the price on the company's cars. He figured his company wouldn't have been where it was if it hadn't been for his customers. So this was a way for him to say "thank you" and be a responsible community citizen. He got sued by some of Ford's (the company) stock holders, who argued that Ford (the man) had no business giving away their money, however good his intentions, and however happy the customers (in this case) would be. The stock holders won handily, and Ford (the man) was severely rebuked by the judge. So the law nowadays expressly forbids companies to do anything that may jeopardize the bottom line and the stock owners dividends. Of course, companies can make people happy _as long as that's the best way to make more money_. But given the choice of making a lot of money while making customers happy and making more money by screwing them the corporations have no (legal) choice but to screw the customers. As to your definition of altruism, that will have to stand for you. It's not a definition shared by very many. If you continue to use words with a definition you invent yourself, it's going to be difficult to communicate meaningfully with your peers. Not that I believe true altruism actually exist. But self interest can frequently masquerade as altruism quite effectively, and be virtually indistinguishable from it. Your implied idea that capitalism has some monopoly on "free" trade is also so patently ridiculous that I can't even be bothered to comment on it. And as to "free choice" in the capitalist countries of today, what choice do I have, for example, if I want to watch my movies, or TV shows, or sports events, or news without commercials? None. Other than that Alaskan cave you mention. And even if I take the draconian step of not watching TV at all, because I dislike the commercials so much, I STILL have to pay for those commercials every time I go shopping. Some choice, huh? I can give you more examples like this if you're interested. And returning to trade. You're not , even in the US, allowed to trade in everything you like. You're for example forbidden to trade in heroin, where you actually face that gun you were speaking about if you don't comply (or his brother, the chair). But maybe that's socialism, what do I know? As a concluding remark, I find it interesting that everytime any of the serious organizations (american mostly) compile reports on the happiest countries in the world, the US are beaten by this or that "socialist" country. But I guess these organizations must be socialist themselves. An no, I'm not paranoid. I swear! They're REALLY out to get me!!!

by BitGeek 19y ago

BrandonM 19y ago

Wow, this is obviously the viewpoint of someone who is not at all familiar with gift societies, someone who seems to me to be desperately clinging to a dogmatism in order to convince him- or herself that his or her life has been lived in a moral manner. The truth is that it's not all black and white. Socialist != Evil, and Capitalist != Good. You speak of corporations bringing happiness to people, but I would like to point out something that I heard a month or so ago. It used to be that people had necessities and very basic desires which were fulfilled by entrepreneurs (merchants and guildworkers) in a capitalist system. In the present-day US and several other countries, however, that is no longer the case. Companies used to be in the business of manufacturing goods to fulfill needs. Nowadays, they instead manufacture needs to sell goods. Why do you think advertising is such a huge industry? It's all kind of funny when you consider the cycle. The current corporate structure relies on a large amount of drone workers doing the majority of the work for a small cut of the pay. The only way to make these workers do this work that no one in their right mind would do willingly is to pay them. Why do they need that money? To buy the very things that these corporations are telling them that they need to be buying. It's all a crazy, vicious cycle, and I'm afraid that it is the inevitable result of long-term capitalist societies. Do you see anything changing for the better in these regards? In an Anthropology class a few years ago, we talked about studies that some researchers had done in comparing the lives of people in developed countries to hunter-gatherer tribes in South America and Africa. The people in these tribes typically spent 2-3 hours a day to provide their food and shelter, and the rest of the time was spent chatting, telling stories, singing, dancing, sporting, and other tribal activities. I would argue that that is happiness, not going to work 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week so that I can get a new car that gets me to work more comfortably. To compare Open Source software to development at gunpoint is absurd. If I have an interesting idea for a piece of software that I would like to write, I am going to write the software and be very happy to share it with the open source community. This has nothing to do with violence; I have enjoyed the benefits of a completely free computing system with extensive functionality, and I am quite happy to return the favor. This is known as a gift society, not violent, immoral ideologies. And this money-for-happiness equation that you are promoting looks a lot like pie in the sky. I worked for 2 years for a small grocer in a country gas station / food mart. The store had been in his family for something like 40 years, and he served a valuable need to the surrounding community in providing the only gas and groceries for 20 miles around. He and his wife worked long days and were by no means rich, but they made enough to live on. His regular customers knew him by name, and he was a regular bidder at the 4-H auctions every summer. Clearly, in this case, the exchange of money for goods is happy for everyone. Unfortunately, cutthroat companies like Wal-Mart move into town who have no concern for the well-being of the community, doing things like storing materials in parking lots which poison water supplies during rain, avoiding a golf cart security guard in their parking lot even though it has proven to reduce crime to 0%, relying on federal programs to cover worker health benefits, and driving all local businesses out and then moving out when the profit margins are no longer good. So the customers save money, yes, but they lose out in so many other ways. This is the problem with faceless corporations who do not see things at a human level. In summary, my problem is not with capitalism, and I am not a socialist. I merely fear that the inevitable end of capitalism is the type of corporate society that has been steadily evolving in the U.S. and elsewhere, one in which paper and numbers are more important than people.

BitGeek 19y ago
"In summary, my problem is not with capitalism, and I am not a socialist. I merely fear that the inevitable end of capitalism is the type of corporate society that has been steadily evolving in the U.S. and elsewhere, one in which paper and numbers are more important than people." You contradict yourself. Obviously you have a problem with capitalism because you beleive people should be forced at gunpoint to live the way you prefer. This is because you value "paper and numbers" more than people. Your idolizing of hunter gatherer societies is the kind of pseudo-science that has always been used to sell socialism. Feel free to quit your job and go find food yourself. In alaska you are free to hunt to feed your family-- subsistence is prtected there (and its a good thing... nothing worse for the environment than environmentalists anyway.) You talk about "Seeing things at a human level" but your idea of the "human level" is sticking a gun in someones face. I never equated open source software wiht development at gunpoint-- so of course you had to say I did to try and make me out as crazy. People who voluntarily open source their software are Capitalists -- they are profiting (exploiting in your parlance) the works of thousands who decide to contribute to their open source software. No, the violence ocmes in when you insist that companies must be restrained and people must be restrained from freely trading for each toher. becauss of your pretend care for their spirit "So the customers save money, yes, but they lose out in so many other ways." When you force walmart to stay out of your town-- you are using a gun to deny poor people the ability to feed themselves. You, my freind, are a socialist. The spew of your post is pure socialist drivel. Its nonsense... and as long as socialists like you continue to spout hateful anti-human nonsense like that, I'll be asking the questiosn you can't answer. Like: Why not let people live in peace? Why do you insist on using violence to force people to live according to your (ignorant) ideas?
- BrandonM 19y ago
  Wow, I can clearly see that it was a mistake to reply to your comment. This is pointless...
  - BitGeek 19y ago
    Yeah, the matrix has you.

themotie 19y ago

You seem to labor under a few misconceptions. Sure, you CAN make money while bringing happiness to the people. As long as it doesn't touch you bottom line, that is. There is a landmark legal case from 1916 (Dodge vs Ford), that's now codified in most countries, that's illustrative of corporations priorities. Ford (the man) wanted to use some of his company's huge profits to do good and make the customers happy. He paid his workers more than the going rate and reduced the price on the company's cars. He figured his company wouldn't have been where it was if it hadn't been for his customers. So this was a way for him to say "thank you" and be a responsible community citizen. He got sued by some of Ford's (the company) stock holders, who argued that Ford (the man) had no business giving away their money, however good his intentions, and however happy the customers (in this case) would be. The stock holders won handily, and Ford (the man) was severely rebuked by the judge. So the law nowadays expressly forbids companies to do anything that may jeopardize the bottom line and the stock owners dividends. Of course, companies can make people happy _as long as that's the best way to make more money_. But given the choice of making a lot of money while making customers happy and making more money by screwing them the corporations have no (legal) choice but to screw the customers. As to your definition of altruism, that will have to stand for you. It's not a definition shared by very many. If you continue to use words with a definition you invent yourself, it's going to be difficult to communicate meaningfully with your peers. Not that I believe true altruism actually exist. But self interest can frequently masquerade as altruism quite effectively, and be virtually indistinguishable from it. Your implied idea that capitalism has some monopoly on "free" trade is also so patently ridiculous that I can't even be bothered to comment on it. And as to "free choice" in the capitalist countries of today, what choice do I have, for example, if I want to watch my movies, or TV shows, or sports events, or news without commercials? None. Other than that Alaskan cave you mention. And even if I take the draconian step of not watching TV at all, because I dislike the commercials so much, I STILL have to pay for those commercials every time I go shopping. Some choice, huh? I can give you more examples like this if you're interested. And returning to trade. You're not , even in the US, allowed to trade in everything you like. You're for example forbidden to trade in heroin, where you actually face that gun you were speaking about if you don't comply (or his brother, the chair). But maybe that's socialism, what do I know? As a concluding remark, I find it interesting that everytime any of the serious organizations (american mostly) compile reports on the happiest countries in the world, the US are beaten by this or that "socialist" country. But I guess these organizations must be socialist themselves. An no, I'm not paranoid. I swear! They're REALLY out to get me!!!