17 ms·

Perhaps you think that police are friendly and helpful because of your experiences. So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear

by mohawk 11y ago

Perhaps you think that police are friendly and helpful because of your experiences. So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes. Perhaps we could experimentally test your hypothesis of friendly police behaviour. Start wearing dreadlocks, put on baggy pants and some other more 'hip-hop' looking clothes. Put some colour on your face and make it look darker. Do this for a year, and _then_ tell us what you think.

ThePhysicist 11y ago
There definitely is subtle or even open racism in Germany, and it is true that some people will treat you very differently if you look "non-European". Appearance-based or racial profiling is also inarguably done by the police and is definitely injust as well. The best we can do to fight this is to stand up for each other, and in fact I often see people doing this and openly intervening and calling out on people that are being racist. While this does not solve the problem of racism it at least creates a climate where racism is seen as something that is not tolerated, which in turn will help to drive it back.
- mohawk 11y ago
  I agree 100%. I didn't mean to attack you personally, it's just very easy to become blind to things that don't affect you personally. The last paragraph of the blog post touches on this as well. I still think it would be an interesting experiment, because of course my opinions on Bavarian police are also based on extrapolation from anecdotes that i have heard.
crusso 11y ago
So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes. There's nothing like the irony of trying to combat bigotry with generalizations.
- mohawk 11y ago
  I am from Germany. Bavarian police is famous here. They do profiling based on your looks, it is called "Verdachtsunabhängige Personenkontrolle". I have heard plenty of complaints from people living in Bavaria, e.g. wearing dreadlocks means you are virtually guaranteed a number of searches and stops by police per year, without any probable cause or even a crime having happened. If they did this to the majority of Bavarians, things would change quickly. So therefore my guess...
  - wolfgke 11y ago
    Also from Germany and heard the same stories about police in Bavaria. Bavaria is a lot more law and order than most other German states (some people compare this with the situation that Texas is a lot more law and order than most other US states; I really don't know whether this comparison fits or not).
    - ameen 11y ago
      Is Bavaria considered the Texas of Germany?
zeveb 11y ago
> So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes. One can't help one's colour, but one can help one's hairstyle and clothes. How one presents oneself is one aspect of one's communication with others, to include the police. If one broadcasts the message, 'I am likely to be a petty criminal' to the police, one should expect to be harassed.
- Bouncingsoul1 11y ago
  (1) All persons shall be equal before the law. (2) Except the person looks like a petty criminal
  - Consultant32452 11y ago
    If I walk up to a police officer and tell them I'm a threat to them I expect to get extra attention I probably won't like. Pretending like body language and other forms of communication don't send the same message is disingenuous.
    - vkou 11y ago
      So, having darker skin makes someone a threat?
      - Consultant32452 11y ago
        Darker skin does not equal threatening body language.
    - wkimeria 11y ago
      So what body language was James Blake showing when he was tackled by police, or Amadou Diallo when he was shot 41 times by plainclothes cops. It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to justify racism.
      - Consultant32452 11y ago
0x49 11y ago
How you dress and how you present yourself definitely has an effect on how a person people perceives you. This is human nature and will never change. If you are in a business suit and wearing a nice tie, regardless of skin color, you will be treated well.
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  > If you are in a business suit and wearing a nice tie, regardless of skin color, you will be treated well. I know just posting 'lol' would simply get me down voted but I have the urge to because it's just laughable. Anyway there are plenty of examples where this is not the case. Here's one of countless others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_98ojjIZDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_98ojjIZDI At 9:35 if you don't care about the rest.
  - 0x49 11y ago
    One example is not proving anything. You are trying to tell me on a systematic level, it happens. It seems you arent going to listen to reason. It doesnt really matter much to me. I will continue to dress appropriately and be treated well. I also find it funny that you sent me your proof in the form of a skit from a comedy show (which can be cut, stopped, and changed, to push a specific agenda)..lol?
    - corin_ 11y ago
      One example doesn't prove anything, but neither does saying "this is the case, I'm right". (For what it's worth I have a semi-unrelated anecdote: I'm 25, and in the UK if I buy alcohol or cigarettes in a t-shirt and jeans then I'd estimate I get asked for ID maybe 90% of the time in a shop or 50% in a bar, if I wear even a shirt and jeans, yet alone something smarter... I don't think I've been asked for ID dressed like that in years. Now I live in France though, and haven't been ID'd here ever.)
    - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
      > One example is not proving anything. You are trying to tell me on a systematic level, it happens. Systematic? I told you you're wrong and that's a fact. You said if you just wear a suit etc, you're treated well. I showed you, that's not true. It's that simple. And no I didn't prove this with a comedy show, I proved it by giving an example of a correspondent of one of the most watched television shows in the US who was 'dressed splendidly in a tailored suit', yet he was stopped. That's not comedy, it's a fact that throws your contention in the trash. Obviously I can't prove anything systematic with anecdotal evidence (which I didn't allude to, but thanks for putting those words in my mouth), just like you can't prove anything systematic on the basis of your own personal experience. What I can do is merely refute you'll always get treated well as long as you simply wear a suit and I think that's obvious. Either way it's a pretty sad state of affairs one can't wear normal attire or sports attire because you'd be risk getting harassed by police. The notion I'd want to wear some kind of civility-uniform just to not get wrongfully harassed by people who serve me, who I pay through my taxes, is silly. And it's especially painful when this requirement largely falls upon people who happened to be born with a certain skin color (as OP's example, supported by many, many studies of racial profiling, shows). To then even feel required to wear a suit, purely to not be treated wrongfully because you have a certain skin color, is degrading. And even then as my example (one of many) shows, you may still be stopped. But feel free to dress 'appropriately', whatever that means. Perhaps it's time for police to send us a manual every year on what we're allowed to wear, you know, what's appropriate, what prevents undue harassment.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
wkimeria 11y ago
Heh, You don’t even have to dress differently, just change your skin color. I dress conservatively, similar to my white friends who share the same socio-economic profile, but our experiences with the police have been vastly different (I’m in the U.S and talking about the Boston area).

by mohawk 11y ago

ThePhysicist 11y ago

There definitely is subtle or even open racism in Germany, and it is true that some people will treat you very differently if you look "non-European". Appearance-based or racial profiling is also inarguably done by the police and is definitely injust as well. The best we can do to fight this is to stand up for each other, and in fact I often see people doing this and openly intervening and calling out on people that are being racist. While this does not solve the problem of racism it at least creates a climate where racism is seen as something that is not tolerated, which in turn will help to drive it back.

mohawk 11y ago
I agree 100%. I didn't mean to attack you personally, it's just very easy to become blind to things that don't affect you personally. The last paragraph of the blog post touches on this as well. I still think it would be an interesting experiment, because of course my opinions on Bavarian police are also based on extrapolation from anecdotes that i have heard.

crusso 11y ago

So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes. There's nothing like the irony of trying to combat bigotry with generalizations.

mohawk 11y ago
I am from Germany. Bavarian police is famous here. They do profiling based on your looks, it is called "Verdachtsunabhängige Personenkontrolle". I have heard plenty of complaints from people living in Bavaria, e.g. wearing dreadlocks means you are virtually guaranteed a number of searches and stops by police per year, without any probable cause or even a crime having happened. If they did this to the majority of Bavarians, things would change quickly. So therefore my guess...
- wolfgke 11y ago
  Also from Germany and heard the same stories about police in Bavaria. Bavaria is a lot more law and order than most other German states (some people compare this with the situation that Texas is a lot more law and order than most other US states; I really don't know whether this comparison fits or not).
  - ameen 11y ago
    Is Bavaria considered the Texas of Germany?

zeveb 11y ago

> So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes. One can't help one's colour, but one can help one's hairstyle and clothes. How one presents oneself is one aspect of one's communication with others, to include the police. If one broadcasts the message, 'I am likely to be a petty criminal' to the police, one should expect to be harassed.

Bouncingsoul1 11y ago
(1) All persons shall be equal before the law. (2) Except the person looks like a petty criminal
- Consultant32452 11y ago
  If I walk up to a police officer and tell them I'm a threat to them I expect to get extra attention I probably won't like. Pretending like body language and other forms of communication don't send the same message is disingenuous.
  - vkou 11y ago
    So, having darker skin makes someone a threat?
    - Consultant32452 11y ago
      Darker skin does not equal threatening body language.
  - wkimeria 11y ago
    So what body language was James Blake showing when he was tackled by police, or Amadou Diallo when he was shot 41 times by plainclothes cops. It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to justify racism.
    - Consultant32452 11y ago

0x49 11y ago

How you dress and how you present yourself definitely has an effect on how a person people perceives you. This is human nature and will never change. If you are in a business suit and wearing a nice tie, regardless of skin color, you will be treated well.

IkmoIkmo 11y ago
> If you are in a business suit and wearing a nice tie, regardless of skin color, you will be treated well. I know just posting 'lol' would simply get me down voted but I have the urge to because it's just laughable. Anyway there are plenty of examples where this is not the case. Here's one of countless others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_98ojjIZDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_98ojjIZDI At 9:35 if you don't care about the rest.
- 0x49 11y ago
  One example is not proving anything. You are trying to tell me on a systematic level, it happens. It seems you arent going to listen to reason. It doesnt really matter much to me. I will continue to dress appropriately and be treated well. I also find it funny that you sent me your proof in the form of a skit from a comedy show (which can be cut, stopped, and changed, to push a specific agenda)..lol?
  - corin_ 11y ago
    One example doesn't prove anything, but neither does saying "this is the case, I'm right". (For what it's worth I have a semi-unrelated anecdote: I'm 25, and in the UK if I buy alcohol or cigarettes in a t-shirt and jeans then I'd estimate I get asked for ID maybe 90% of the time in a shop or 50% in a bar, if I wear even a shirt and jeans, yet alone something smarter... I don't think I've been asked for ID dressed like that in years. Now I live in France though, and haven't been ID'd here ever.)
  - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
    > One example is not proving anything. You are trying to tell me on a systematic level, it happens. Systematic? I told you you're wrong and that's a fact. You said if you just wear a suit etc, you're treated well. I showed you, that's not true. It's that simple. And no I didn't prove this with a comedy show, I proved it by giving an example of a correspondent of one of the most watched television shows in the US who was 'dressed splendidly in a tailored suit', yet he was stopped. That's not comedy, it's a fact that throws your contention in the trash. Obviously I can't prove anything systematic with anecdotal evidence (which I didn't allude to, but thanks for putting those words in my mouth), just like you can't prove anything systematic on the basis of your own personal experience. What I can do is merely refute you'll always get treated well as long as you simply wear a suit and I think that's obvious. Either way it's a pretty sad state of affairs one can't wear normal attire or sports attire because you'd be risk getting harassed by police. The notion I'd want to wear some kind of civility-uniform just to not get wrongfully harassed by people who serve me, who I pay through my taxes, is silly. And it's especially painful when this requirement largely falls upon people who happened to be born with a certain skin color (as OP's example, supported by many, many studies of racial profiling, shows). To then even feel required to wear a suit, purely to not be treated wrongfully because you have a certain skin color, is degrading. And even then as my example (one of many) shows, you may still be stopped. But feel free to dress 'appropriately', whatever that means. Perhaps it's time for police to send us a manual every year on what we're allowed to wear, you know, what's appropriate, what prevents undue harassment.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

wkimeria 11y ago

Heh, You don’t even have to dress differently, just change your skin color. I dress conservatively, similar to my white friends who share the same socio-economic profile, but our experiences with the police have been vastly different (I’m in the U.S and talking about the Boston area).