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Universities love to complain about needing to react to what parents are saying, but this seems like something they bring on themselves. With such expensive tu

Universities love to complain about needing to react to what parents are saying, but this seems like something they bring on themselves. With such expensive tuition, a student's choice of college often cannot be made independently, and parents feel like they are buying their right to hassle higher educators. I would love to see a world where students truly decide on their own university and the ability for parents to affect the day-to-day of a university is drastically reduced. To me, this is the most interesting aspect of the push for free college.

austenallred 11y ago
I don't think it has as much to do with parents paying for college as it does the fact that it's an almost-requirement to have a parent paving the way for the vast majority of kids to make it into a Stanford. Normal human beings don't exhibit the level of dedication required, but parents know they can set their kids up for life if they remove a lot of the obstacles. It's not surprising to me that pattern doesn't stop.
Gotadime 11y ago
You just tried to spin a cultural issue (that is, by the way, highly tied to liberal thought) to support your liberal political agenda. These helicopter parents are the same people that protest when their kids don't get a trophy for losing a soccer game. The "no child left behind" / "no hurt feelings" / "safe place" crew. To say that more of their ideas will help to solve the very issue that they created is simply laughable. I don't disagree with you that competition for admission and cost of tuition probably do have some effect on this issue. But those effects have always existed in the higher education system and only more recently has this issue popped up. This isn't an issue of politics or economics. This is an issue of culture and parenting philosophy. Not everything can be solved with a Bernie Sanders bill. Some things require actual introspection on an individual level. Some things require a criticism of our own thoughts and ideas.
- m_fayer 11y ago
  > your liberal political agenda > protest when their kids don't get a trophy for losing a soccer game It's great to respectfully debate across an ideological divide, but these kinds of propogandistic catch phrases immediately flag your comment as "looking for an internet food-fight" and shut down any thoughtful discussion before it starts.
- sagichmal 11y ago
  > These helicopter parents are the same people that protest when their kids don't get a trophy for losing a soccer game Facts not in evidence. > The "no child left behind" / "no hurt feelings" / "safe place" crew. No child left behind was a Republican (conservative) initiative.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  "Liberal political agenda" and "Bernie Sanders bill" in the same comment. I also learned NCLB is an integral part of liberal thought. Truly a better detachment of semiotics from words has never been foisted. The butchering of the English language done by U.S. pundits after the New Deal era to redefine liberalism (or, really, to eradicate all meaning out of it) is unfortunately spreading all across the globe thanks to the web.
- analog31 11y ago
  These helicopter parents are the same people that protest when their kids don't get a trophy for losing a soccer game. Granted this is off topic, but I've reached a similar conclusion that "everybody gets a trophy" is an urban legend spread to promote a conservative political agenda. Most parents -- conservative or liberal -- roll their eyes at that idea. A handful of anecdotes: 1. When my kids were little, they participated in soccer. For the smallest kids, it's apparently customary that they don't keep score. Well, the kids themselves kept score. Every kid knew the score, who won, who scored the goals, and who were the best players on the team. 2. My daughter brought home a ribbon for something. She said: "Oh, this is just one of those ribbons that everybody gets for participating." So this apparently liberal agenda can't have had much of an effect. 3. The most liberal parents in town put their kids into competitive or selective situations from a very early age. Through the fairly standardized repertoire for violin lessons, my daughter has known her exact rank as a violinist, since she was practically a toddler. There's no ambiguity about who can play song 6 from book 8, and who can't.
- gotothrowaway 11y ago
  "To say that more of their ideas will help to solve the very issue they created..." I don't see how I did that. I do appreciate your perspective that I spun a cultural issue to support my political agenda. I'd argue that I'm actually doing the opposite, but I agree I did nothing to make that clear In all honesty, I've long thought that parental influence on college students' decisions - whether it be the choice of college itself or the concept of "helicopter parenting" within college - has the single greatest negative influence on top universities. Without a consistent "expected contribution" across colleges, cost is a dominant factor in the decision process, and we end up with students that don't necessarily want to be studying where they are. I loved my school, and while I felt bad for the kids who complained about being there because they had no choice, I often just wish they'd leave and stop dampening the culture. At top universities, it's similar to someone in YC constantly complaining that they have to try this pesky startup thing. I also disagree that the effects have existed forever. I think it came with the cultural shift of helicopter parenting, and parents generally making more decisions for their children. Ultimately though, I support the Bernie Sanders bill because I think it's an interesting way to try and resolve the negative impacts of the cultural shift. It's a bit like using a sledgehammer to drive a nail, but I'm not one to complain about free college (and I do think free public tuition will extend to the private sector, especially quickly at the top university level)

austenallred 11y ago

I don't think it has as much to do with parents paying for college as it does the fact that it's an almost-requirement to have a parent paving the way for the vast majority of kids to make it into a Stanford. Normal human beings don't exhibit the level of dedication required, but parents know they can set their kids up for life if they remove a lot of the obstacles. It's not surprising to me that pattern doesn't stop.

Gotadime 11y ago

You just tried to spin a cultural issue (that is, by the way, highly tied to liberal thought) to support your liberal political agenda. These helicopter parents are the same people that protest when their kids don't get a trophy for losing a soccer game. The "no child left behind" / "no hurt feelings" / "safe place" crew. To say that more of their ideas will help to solve the very issue that they created is simply laughable. I don't disagree with you that competition for admission and cost of tuition probably do have some effect on this issue. But those effects have always existed in the higher education system and only more recently has this issue popped up. This isn't an issue of politics or economics. This is an issue of culture and parenting philosophy. Not everything can be solved with a Bernie Sanders bill. Some things require actual introspection on an individual level. Some things require a criticism of our own thoughts and ideas.

m_fayer 11y ago
> your liberal political agenda > protest when their kids don't get a trophy for losing a soccer game It's great to respectfully debate across an ideological divide, but these kinds of propogandistic catch phrases immediately flag your comment as "looking for an internet food-fight" and shut down any thoughtful discussion before it starts.
sagichmal 11y ago
> These helicopter parents are the same people that protest when their kids don't get a trophy for losing a soccer game Facts not in evidence. > The "no child left behind" / "no hurt feelings" / "safe place" crew. No child left behind was a Republican (conservative) initiative.
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
"Liberal political agenda" and "Bernie Sanders bill" in the same comment. I also learned NCLB is an integral part of liberal thought. Truly a better detachment of semiotics from words has never been foisted. The butchering of the English language done by U.S. pundits after the New Deal era to redefine liberalism (or, really, to eradicate all meaning out of it) is unfortunately spreading all across the globe thanks to the web.
analog31 11y ago
These helicopter parents are the same people that protest when their kids don't get a trophy for losing a soccer game. Granted this is off topic, but I've reached a similar conclusion that "everybody gets a trophy" is an urban legend spread to promote a conservative political agenda. Most parents -- conservative or liberal -- roll their eyes at that idea. A handful of anecdotes: 1. When my kids were little, they participated in soccer. For the smallest kids, it's apparently customary that they don't keep score. Well, the kids themselves kept score. Every kid knew the score, who won, who scored the goals, and who were the best players on the team. 2. My daughter brought home a ribbon for something. She said: "Oh, this is just one of those ribbons that everybody gets for participating." So this apparently liberal agenda can't have had much of an effect. 3. The most liberal parents in town put their kids into competitive or selective situations from a very early age. Through the fairly standardized repertoire for violin lessons, my daughter has known her exact rank as a violinist, since she was practically a toddler. There's no ambiguity about who can play song 6 from book 8, and who can't.
gotothrowaway 11y ago
"To say that more of their ideas will help to solve the very issue they created..." I don't see how I did that. I do appreciate your perspective that I spun a cultural issue to support my political agenda. I'd argue that I'm actually doing the opposite, but I agree I did nothing to make that clear In all honesty, I've long thought that parental influence on college students' decisions - whether it be the choice of college itself or the concept of "helicopter parenting" within college - has the single greatest negative influence on top universities. Without a consistent "expected contribution" across colleges, cost is a dominant factor in the decision process, and we end up with students that don't necessarily want to be studying where they are. I loved my school, and while I felt bad for the kids who complained about being there because they had no choice, I often just wish they'd leave and stop dampening the culture. At top universities, it's similar to someone in YC constantly complaining that they have to try this pesky startup thing. I also disagree that the effects have existed forever. I think it came with the cultural shift of helicopter parenting, and parents generally making more decisions for their children. Ultimately though, I support the Bernie Sanders bill because I think it's an interesting way to try and resolve the negative impacts of the cultural shift. It's a bit like using a sledgehammer to drive a nail, but I'm not one to complain about free college (and I do think free public tuition will extend to the private sector, especially quickly at the top university level)