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in other words, use unclear and vague criteria to judge admissions that just happen to massively disadvantage asian americans. it's strange that Faust is not co

in other words, use unclear and vague criteria to judge admissions that just happen to massively disadvantage asian americans. it's strange that Faust is not condemned for her absurd and racist suggestion that asian american applicants are on average much less "interesting" people.

puredemo 11y ago
"All these Asian applicants look the same..." Seems to be her meta-message.
- mildbow 11y ago
  "All these Asians look the same..." Another win for casual racism. College admissions could really do with some sort of objective criteria. Because yeah, obviously human foibles always creep in.
  - FlannelPancake 11y ago
    > College admissions could really do with some sort of objective criteria Like GPA and SAT/ACT scores? Because they tried that. Secondary education is too easy and variable in the US, and Harvard can't really do much about that.
    - duncanawoods 11y ago
      How about Harvard specific entrance exams? I did extra exams for Cambridge.
- wozniacki 11y ago
  Not to put too fine a point on it, but 20% of those admitted were Asian American, for the class of 2019, in a country where less than 5%, self-identify as Asian-American.[1][2] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-get-into-harvard/373726/#comment-1462718053 http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-... [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-get-into-harvard/373726/#comment-1462720720 http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-...
  - jerrickhoang 11y ago
    Yeah, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be more.
  - 9872 11y ago
    Harvard accepts students from all over the world. Over 50% of the world is Asian.
    - klipt 11y ago
      Only 12% of admitted students are from outside the US. Harvard clearly favors US applicants. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics
- gozo 11y ago
  I'm not the one to defend Harvard, but an unestablished minority group only has so many opportunities so of course a lot of peoples resumes are going to look the same. That said, this is pretty much just traditional elitism. If your work harder than anyone else you'll still not get recognized because you're not claimed to be smart, cultured, pretty or interesting enough.
  - FlannelPancake 11y ago
    > If your work harder than anyone else you'll still not get recognized because you're not claimed to be smart, cultured, pretty or interesting enough. Err, that's not at all what she said or even implied. That's the point: they didn't work harder than anyone else applying to Harvard. They can't make decisions based on GPA/ACT/SAT scores, because everyone has the same top scores. Hypothetically, and probably not that far off: So you have 10,000 applicants for a class of 2,000 and 8,000 of those applicants are valedictorians with extremely high SAT/ACT scores and they've managed to check all the regular boxes (played sports, instruments, etc.). How are you going to cull 6,000 applicants?
mdorazio 11y ago
That's a rather pithy way to interpret what was said. Here's an alternate interpretation: be different from all the other applicants. If you have the same grades, the same extracurriculars, and the same things to talk about in an essay, you're not going to be different from everyone else and thus won't get in. And that's the nature of being different - you can't quantify it until you see it. Having gone to a high-percentage Asian high school, I can tell you that traditional Asian parents mostly push their kids to do a limited set of things (high academic scores, orchestra, etc.), which can easily lead to a homogeneous pool of applicants. Faust is saying that if you want your kid to get into Harvard, you should instead encourage them to do things that set them apart from the thousands of other smart kids applying. Build an airplane, climb a famous mountain, invent something, be a sailor, race sled dogs, etc. Those are the things that make an applicant stand out.
- iconhacker 11y ago
  How many Latino or African American kids are different? How many "White" kids are standing out? All white kids seem the same is not an understatement.
- pointeroffact 11y ago
  the point is that holistic can be easily used as a cover for race based discrimination and that this is what is happening at harvard and elite universities. when you look at the quantitative disadvantage for asian applicants in terms of SAT/GPA, I think it's clear that homogeneity cannot explain this away. it's also a little absurd that they publicly place so much emphasis on diversity and "interesting" applicants when the actual student body of ivy league colleges is filled with bland wealthy strivers of all races. the interpretation in your last paragraph is even worse in a way for faust and harvard: only children with the right parental financial resources and support would have been able to "Build an airplane, climb a famous mountain, invent something, be a sailor, race sled dogs" before the age of 18. it is also hard to see why an academic institution cares so much about such things.
andrepd 11y ago
>absurd and racist suggestion that asian american applicants are on average much less "interesting" people Talk about putting words in one's mouth...
- pointeroffact 11y ago
  this follows directly from what she said.
kenjackson 11y ago
The problem is that the SAT isn't a very interesting test, IMO, for college admission. It doesn't test achievement, but is closer to an IQ test. I think its reasonable for top-tier schools to create a cut-off, but once you score above a threshold, I don't think it provides much value. And as another poster noted -- Asians are still greatly overrepresented at Harvard. Faust really is saying that Whites aren't interesting (Blacks are of about average interest as their numbers match the general population now).

puredemo 11y ago

"All these Asian applicants look the same..." Seems to be her meta-message.

mildbow 11y ago
"All these Asians look the same..." Another win for casual racism. College admissions could really do with some sort of objective criteria. Because yeah, obviously human foibles always creep in.
- FlannelPancake 11y ago
  > College admissions could really do with some sort of objective criteria Like GPA and SAT/ACT scores? Because they tried that. Secondary education is too easy and variable in the US, and Harvard can't really do much about that.
  - duncanawoods 11y ago
    How about Harvard specific entrance exams? I did extra exams for Cambridge.
wozniacki 11y ago
Not to put too fine a point on it, but 20% of those admitted were Asian American, for the class of 2019, in a country where less than 5%, self-identify as Asian-American.[1][2] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-get-into-harvard/373726/#comment-1462718053 http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-... [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-get-into-harvard/373726/#comment-1462720720 http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-...
- jerrickhoang 11y ago
  Yeah, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be more.
- 9872 11y ago
  Harvard accepts students from all over the world. Over 50% of the world is Asian.
  - klipt 11y ago
    Only 12% of admitted students are from outside the US. Harvard clearly favors US applicants. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics
gozo 11y ago
I'm not the one to defend Harvard, but an unestablished minority group only has so many opportunities so of course a lot of peoples resumes are going to look the same. That said, this is pretty much just traditional elitism. If your work harder than anyone else you'll still not get recognized because you're not claimed to be smart, cultured, pretty or interesting enough.
- FlannelPancake 11y ago
  > If your work harder than anyone else you'll still not get recognized because you're not claimed to be smart, cultured, pretty or interesting enough. Err, that's not at all what she said or even implied. That's the point: they didn't work harder than anyone else applying to Harvard. They can't make decisions based on GPA/ACT/SAT scores, because everyone has the same top scores. Hypothetically, and probably not that far off: So you have 10,000 applicants for a class of 2,000 and 8,000 of those applicants are valedictorians with extremely high SAT/ACT scores and they've managed to check all the regular boxes (played sports, instruments, etc.). How are you going to cull 6,000 applicants?

mdorazio 11y ago

That's a rather pithy way to interpret what was said. Here's an alternate interpretation: be different from all the other applicants. If you have the same grades, the same extracurriculars, and the same things to talk about in an essay, you're not going to be different from everyone else and thus won't get in. And that's the nature of being different - you can't quantify it until you see it. Having gone to a high-percentage Asian high school, I can tell you that traditional Asian parents mostly push their kids to do a limited set of things (high academic scores, orchestra, etc.), which can easily lead to a homogeneous pool of applicants. Faust is saying that if you want your kid to get into Harvard, you should instead encourage them to do things that set them apart from the thousands of other smart kids applying. Build an airplane, climb a famous mountain, invent something, be a sailor, race sled dogs, etc. Those are the things that make an applicant stand out.

iconhacker 11y ago
How many Latino or African American kids are different? How many "White" kids are standing out? All white kids seem the same is not an understatement.
pointeroffact 11y ago
the point is that holistic can be easily used as a cover for race based discrimination and that this is what is happening at harvard and elite universities. when you look at the quantitative disadvantage for asian applicants in terms of SAT/GPA, I think it's clear that homogeneity cannot explain this away. it's also a little absurd that they publicly place so much emphasis on diversity and "interesting" applicants when the actual student body of ivy league colleges is filled with bland wealthy strivers of all races. the interpretation in your last paragraph is even worse in a way for faust and harvard: only children with the right parental financial resources and support would have been able to "Build an airplane, climb a famous mountain, invent something, be a sailor, race sled dogs" before the age of 18. it is also hard to see why an academic institution cares so much about such things.

andrepd 11y ago

>absurd and racist suggestion that asian american applicants are on average much less "interesting" people Talk about putting words in one's mouth...

pointeroffact 11y ago
this follows directly from what she said.

kenjackson 11y ago

The problem is that the SAT isn't a very interesting test, IMO, for college admission. It doesn't test achievement, but is closer to an IQ test. I think its reasonable for top-tier schools to create a cut-off, but once you score above a threshold, I don't think it provides much value. And as another poster noted -- Asians are still greatly overrepresented at Harvard. Faust really is saying that Whites aren't interesting (Blacks are of about average interest as their numbers match the general population now).