6 ms·

Do Europeans actually believe that the main problem with Blacks in the US is racism?

jacobush 11y ago
Yes, I think so. Would you care to elaborate why this would not be so?
DanBC 11y ago
(I'm having trouble parsing your question.) I think that most problems faced by black people in the US are a result of racism. Sometimes that's overt direct racism. Sometimes it's institutional racism. Sometimes it's the end result of years of policies that had racist origins.
leaveyou 11y ago
Looking at NBA, football and US sports in general, I don't believe that. These problems are usually more complex than "it's just racism". We have that kind of problems in Europe too.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Being a huge black success in NBA doesn't mean anything with regards to racism in society. Racists still enjoy sports. For them blacks athletes are like circus acts or monkeys performing for them -- they even have their favorites.
  - mineshaftgap 11y ago
    Europeans have a cartoon understanding of the US, which is why they actually worry that they will be carjacked when they visit.
    - allendoerfer 11y ago
      I think most Europeans know, that most places in the US are safe. For me the difference is, that I live in the most dangerous city in Germany (statistic inflated due to giant airport) and would still walk through every street here at any time. I do not think that I would do the same in some parts of LA. So maybe my understanding of LA is a bit cartoonish - and granted you do not walk in LA anyway.
      - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        > I think most Europeans know, that most places in the US are safe. But they really aren't. There are more murders per capita in a quiet little town like Long Beach (CA) than in Naples (Italy).
    - arethuza 11y ago
      "Europeans have a cartoon understanding of the US" Unfortunately that appears to work both ways.
    - leaveyou 11y ago
      I didn't visit US and I don't intend to do it soon(ever?), but I would have some "cartoonish" fears like: being detained/harassed/turned back in the airport for possible stupid/hostile remarks I made (who knows when, who knows on which forum) about US gov or foreign policy; Or being shot without witnesses or strangulated to death by some psychopath policeman because "resisted arrest" and so on..
    - csn 11y ago
      Many of us see the USA through your "Hollywood window", media reports and statistics. Imagine how easy it is to be worried about your personal safety. The reason I do not plan to visit is because of that image about gun-totin', mentally unstable nation out of touch with reality with bizarre and secret laws which are in the worst case enforced by trigger-happy people with less than 5 months of training. Terrifying. But you aren't actually safe from them in a different continent either: attending to a wedding in Mid East can be lethal...
  - leaveyou 11y ago
    I don't know the psychology of racists but in Europe I see very often a pattern, when person A feels discriminated by person B, A would rather blame racism or xenophobia if he can, than admit he is discriminated because he has different social class, different culture|religion|sexuality, lower level of education or intelligence, unpleasant behavior or physical appearance, etc.. So when an individual gets along well with several people of a different race but he's accused of racism by others, I tend to believe the source of conflict is not racism but some other "unspecified" reasons.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
      > because he has different social class That's just classism, which is as bad as racism or xenophobia. > different culture|religion|sexuality Also inexcusable > lower level of education Which typically happens as a result of racism > unpleasant behavior or physical appearance Caused by poverty, which was caused by racism
      - leaveyou 11y ago
        Yes, I very much agree that poverty and the lack of education should be forbidden (racism and xenophobia already is). We only have to work out how to efficiently impose universal education, respect, equality, fraternity while still preserving the liberty.
      - theworstshill 11y ago
        Sounds like freedom of association is not one of your strong points.
        leaveyou 11y ago
        racism prevents associations too.. I for example would associate with Obama's daughter but I bet she's a freaking racist
      - coldtea 11y ago
        >That's just classism, which is as bad as racism or xenophobia Depends on the kind of classism (and the direction) -- because upper classes DO have power, money, etc, and it's not some basic human right or morality to believe that they should. Else, we can describe anything with an "ism" and say it's bad. "You hate murderers? That's antimurderism".
fauigerzigerk 11y ago
I believe what most Europeans would think is that the main problem for Blacks in the US is poverty, and that poverty is related to racism, some of it historical.
allendoerfer 11y ago
I personally think, Europe and the US have a problem with their underclass. This fuels racism, because claims like "more blacks are criminals than whites" are indeed true, but not because they are black, but because they are in the lower class. With stagnating economies it is much harder to rise out of it and with technological advancements it becomes harder and harder for them to stay employed. I would call it racism, because the term expanded to be about more than just color of skin. I do not think about it in a redneck-raises-confederate-flag-and-points-shotgun-at-black-sense either but more in the way key points of society like education are structured.
- mineshaftgap 11y ago
  There are plenty of other groups in the lower class with much better outcomes, but any discussion of cultural issues is strictly verboten.
  - allendoerfer 11y ago
    Just carefully back up you claims and nobody on HN will harm you. Being offended by mainstream media and believing you alone know the truth while all other follow the government like sheep is usually the narrative of actual racists.
    - happyscrappy 11y ago
      "and nobody on HN will harm you" I think you are letting your hate get the better of you, which is not an attractive quality for a German.
      - dang 11y ago
        I've asked you many times to stop making inflammatory statements on HN. This one is beyond the pale. If you do this again I'm going to ban your account.
        happyscrappy 11y ago
coldtea 11y ago
Do Americans actually believe it's not? Do people understand systemic injustice, and what coming from being a nation of slaves merely 150 years ago, and having legal injustice until merely 40 years ago and implicit injustice until today can do to a people?
- mineshaftgap 11y ago
  A mere 70 years ago Jews were being chased through Europe and killed like dogs. My only point was that there are bigger problems than racism. The roots may be from Jim Crow and such but the lack of progress is disheartening and seemingly intractable.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >A mere 70 years ago Jews were being chased through Europe and killed like dogs. However all of them were white, educated (a lot of them highly educated), and managed to migrate to places where they fit with white society and were not persecuted for being jews anymore. Blacks didn't have that. >The roots may be from Jim Crow and such but the lack of progress is disheartening and seemingly intractable. Well, lack of progress is relative. From just-freed slaves, peniless and uneducated, now there is a decent black middle class. But if your grantparents were dead poor (think Jim Crow blacks in the South in the 20's and 40's), then you don't get to jump that far in a 3 generations. Especially if your father had to face discrimination (in schooling, hiring, loans etc) up until the seventies or even more. Latinos have the same problems. Jews, Italians, Irish not so much -- they started from much better position than slaves, and they are white so could fit in to business etc better. Besides they didn't originate from places like Alabama, Mississippi, like most of blacks who migrated North did etc -- they came to NY, Chicago etc.
dang 11y ago
We detached this from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10177465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10177465 and marked it off-topic.

Yes, I think so. Would you care to elaborate why this would not be so?

DanBC 11y ago

(I'm having trouble parsing your question.) I think that most problems faced by black people in the US are a result of racism. Sometimes that's overt direct racism. Sometimes it's institutional racism. Sometimes it's the end result of years of policies that had racist origins.

leaveyou 11y ago

Looking at NBA, football and US sports in general, I don't believe that. These problems are usually more complex than "it's just racism". We have that kind of problems in Europe too.

coldtea 11y ago
Being a huge black success in NBA doesn't mean anything with regards to racism in society. Racists still enjoy sports. For them blacks athletes are like circus acts or monkeys performing for them -- they even have their favorites.
- mineshaftgap 11y ago
  Europeans have a cartoon understanding of the US, which is why they actually worry that they will be carjacked when they visit.
  - allendoerfer 11y ago
    I think most Europeans know, that most places in the US are safe. For me the difference is, that I live in the most dangerous city in Germany (statistic inflated due to giant airport) and would still walk through every street here at any time. I do not think that I would do the same in some parts of LA. So maybe my understanding of LA is a bit cartoonish - and granted you do not walk in LA anyway.
    - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      > I think most Europeans know, that most places in the US are safe. But they really aren't. There are more murders per capita in a quiet little town like Long Beach (CA) than in Naples (Italy).
  - arethuza 11y ago
    "Europeans have a cartoon understanding of the US" Unfortunately that appears to work both ways.
  - leaveyou 11y ago
    I didn't visit US and I don't intend to do it soon(ever?), but I would have some "cartoonish" fears like: being detained/harassed/turned back in the airport for possible stupid/hostile remarks I made (who knows when, who knows on which forum) about US gov or foreign policy; Or being shot without witnesses or strangulated to death by some psychopath policeman because "resisted arrest" and so on..
  - csn 11y ago
    Many of us see the USA through your "Hollywood window", media reports and statistics. Imagine how easy it is to be worried about your personal safety. The reason I do not plan to visit is because of that image about gun-totin', mentally unstable nation out of touch with reality with bizarre and secret laws which are in the worst case enforced by trigger-happy people with less than 5 months of training. Terrifying. But you aren't actually safe from them in a different continent either: attending to a wedding in Mid East can be lethal...
- leaveyou 11y ago
  I don't know the psychology of racists but in Europe I see very often a pattern, when person A feels discriminated by person B, A would rather blame racism or xenophobia if he can, than admit he is discriminated because he has different social class, different culture|religion|sexuality, lower level of education or intelligence, unpleasant behavior or physical appearance, etc.. So when an individual gets along well with several people of a different race but he's accused of racism by others, I tend to believe the source of conflict is not racism but some other "unspecified" reasons.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    > because he has different social class That's just classism, which is as bad as racism or xenophobia. > different culture|religion|sexuality Also inexcusable > lower level of education Which typically happens as a result of racism > unpleasant behavior or physical appearance Caused by poverty, which was caused by racism
    - leaveyou 11y ago
      Yes, I very much agree that poverty and the lack of education should be forbidden (racism and xenophobia already is). We only have to work out how to efficiently impose universal education, respect, equality, fraternity while still preserving the liberty.
    - theworstshill 11y ago
      Sounds like freedom of association is not one of your strong points.
      - leaveyou 11y ago
        racism prevents associations too.. I for example would associate with Obama's daughter but I bet she's a freaking racist
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >That's just classism, which is as bad as racism or xenophobia Depends on the kind of classism (and the direction) -- because upper classes DO have power, money, etc, and it's not some basic human right or morality to believe that they should. Else, we can describe anything with an "ism" and say it's bad. "You hate murderers? That's antimurderism".

fauigerzigerk 11y ago

I believe what most Europeans would think is that the main problem for Blacks in the US is poverty, and that poverty is related to racism, some of it historical.

allendoerfer 11y ago

I personally think, Europe and the US have a problem with their underclass. This fuels racism, because claims like "more blacks are criminals than whites" are indeed true, but not because they are black, but because they are in the lower class. With stagnating economies it is much harder to rise out of it and with technological advancements it becomes harder and harder for them to stay employed. I would call it racism, because the term expanded to be about more than just color of skin. I do not think about it in a redneck-raises-confederate-flag-and-points-shotgun-at-black-sense either but more in the way key points of society like education are structured.

mineshaftgap 11y ago
There are plenty of other groups in the lower class with much better outcomes, but any discussion of cultural issues is strictly verboten.
- allendoerfer 11y ago
  Just carefully back up you claims and nobody on HN will harm you. Being offended by mainstream media and believing you alone know the truth while all other follow the government like sheep is usually the narrative of actual racists.
  - happyscrappy 11y ago
    "and nobody on HN will harm you" I think you are letting your hate get the better of you, which is not an attractive quality for a German.
    - dang 11y ago
      I've asked you many times to stop making inflammatory statements on HN. This one is beyond the pale. If you do this again I'm going to ban your account.
      - happyscrappy 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago

Do Americans actually believe it's not? Do people understand systemic injustice, and what coming from being a nation of slaves merely 150 years ago, and having legal injustice until merely 40 years ago and implicit injustice until today can do to a people?

mineshaftgap 11y ago
A mere 70 years ago Jews were being chased through Europe and killed like dogs. My only point was that there are bigger problems than racism. The roots may be from Jim Crow and such but the lack of progress is disheartening and seemingly intractable.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >A mere 70 years ago Jews were being chased through Europe and killed like dogs. However all of them were white, educated (a lot of them highly educated), and managed to migrate to places where they fit with white society and were not persecuted for being jews anymore. Blacks didn't have that. >The roots may be from Jim Crow and such but the lack of progress is disheartening and seemingly intractable. Well, lack of progress is relative. From just-freed slaves, peniless and uneducated, now there is a decent black middle class. But if your grantparents were dead poor (think Jim Crow blacks in the South in the 20's and 40's), then you don't get to jump that far in a 3 generations. Especially if your father had to face discrimination (in schooling, hiring, loans etc) up until the seventies or even more. Latinos have the same problems. Jews, Italians, Irish not so much -- they started from much better position than slaves, and they are white so could fit in to business etc better. Besides they didn't originate from places like Alabama, Mississippi, like most of blacks who migrated North did etc -- they came to NY, Chicago etc.

dang 11y ago

We detached this from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10177465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10177465 and marked it off-topic.