19 ms·

Why cares who's responsible? They're humans. Arn't we all responsible for all humans on the planet?

by ashleyp 11y ago

treenyc 11y ago
You can be responsible, and it doesn't has to be in the way that allows 'refugees' into your country. People in each country ought to have a choice in that.
- ashleyp 11y ago
  True - there's still ways of helping without that. But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =)) It seems to me the only countries whom are scared are the ones who think they're the best, greatest and fear loosing that status. This sounds like idk...country ego? lol.
  - caseysoftware 11y ago
    > Why cares who's responsible? They're humans. Arn't we all responsible for all humans on the planet? How many homeless people do you let crash at your place each night?
    - ashleyp 11y ago
      Caseysoftware - i've had exactly three people crash at my house who were homeless strangers. Only for a few nights each. I have also got chatting to a homeless dude who turned out to be an artist. He carried on a pen drive pictures he'd created over the last few years but he had no computer access and no way to get them. I said i'd take a look and the next day went into a shop and printed every single picture, paid for it and gave it to him. I have no problem giving to strangers and not getting anything in return. I get something back naturally, I feel happier that they are happier. Hence i'm in the process of starting a social enterprise =).
      - caseysoftware 11y ago
        Sounds like a great start. When are you going fulltime with it? "It" being letting homeless people crash at your house all the time.
        rmxt 11y ago
        It's intellectually dishonest to presuppose that the only way to support destitute people is to personally let them into your home.
        caseysoftware 11y ago
        It's intellectually dishonest to suggest that people let the destitute into their own homes, but not for people to suggest the same for your home? It's easy to suggest how someone else's resources (time, money, and effort) should be handled but it's something else to do it yourself.
        rmxt 11y ago
        Yes, it is intellectually dishonest. The submission/posted website does suggest inviting refugees into one's own home, but you are the one who suggested that we should compare "fear of refugees on a national level" (ashleyp's post "But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country?") to "fear of letting a stranger into one's home" (your post "How many homeless people do you let crash at your place each night?") That's not a sound comparison. Nowhere has anyone stated that you (the impersonal you) should take refugees in, while I don't. I am not suggesting that any individual be mandated to keep refugees (or anyone that they don't want) in their home. I am suggesting that pooled resources (taxes, which aren't "someone else's resources") go towards maximizing the benefit for the most number of people, inclusive of immigrants.
        ashleyp 11y ago
        I won't be for a long time. I've just moved back into my disabled Mum's house which has 3 small bedrooms and 5 people. Cramped conditions but I work as much as possible on a social enterprise. In a few years time I dream i'll be able to provide much more housing than space on my couch. There are alternatives to just giving housing.
  - d9h549f34w6 11y ago
    How many destitute people do you house in your own home? Why only that number and not more? If zero, why is that? What percentage of your income are you donating to support refugees? Why is that percentage not higher?
    - ashleyp 11y ago
      Ooo, there's a hefty underlying assumption in your post. I have previously taken people off the street, three times. I do not currently have anyone living in my home because I have moved back to my disabled Mums which is a 3 bedroom house already with 5 people living there. Why am I living at my Mums? I give 100% of my time to helping others and i'm in the process of starting a social enterprise to develop technology to help others in a variety of situations. We've already designed and nearly finish an app to help women in domestic violence situations, tools to help kids with dyslexia, tools for autism. Every penny will go back into creating more tools and technologies to help. Then I can buy an Island. Yep, i'm not even kidding that's my ambition. "What percentage of your income are you donating to support refugees? Why is that percentage not higher?" - I currently give no funds to refugees because I put all of my funds into creating other projects to help others in different domains. I feel that investing in these which will generate more income will give more income to help more people.
      - throwaway999777 11y ago
        slow clap.
        ashleyp 11y ago
        Thankyou. We're already pulling in 4k a month and reaching schools.
        throwaway999777 11y ago
        Have fun with your martyr egotrip.
  - jbssm 11y ago
    > But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =)) It's the fear of letting people with very, very, different social standards in our countries. And it's warranted. More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death. We are not talking about a minority here, we are talking about the majority of them. So, you really shouldn't have to ask why are we afraid of letting them in in such big numbers, the questions should be, how can we do the right thing and still protect the social freedom values we hold dear in the West while doing so. Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi... EDIT: It's funny that I'm being downvoted for answering exactly your question and providing evidence about it from a well know and neutral source.
    - rmxt 11y ago
      Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we could start to talk about the ramifications of culture clashes. As it stands now, you're looking for what you want to see: "Muslims are scary!". I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.
      - jbssm 11y ago
        So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe. Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.
jqm 11y ago
I don't think we can be. Sadly.
gyardley 11y ago
Whether we should be is up for debate, but no, I'm pretty sure we're not.
- ashleyp 11y ago
  Who says we're not?
  - gyardley 11y ago
    The legal codes we're subject to, whether we are or we aren't. I believe in most locales people are responsible for their own children, but - and correct me if I'm wrong, happy to learn something - I don't think there's anything in there that makes anyone responsible for random strangers on the other side of the planet. Again, this doesn't have anything to do with whether we should be responsible for random strangers on the other side of the planet.
    - ashleyp 11y ago
      Hello :) So in my perspective, no one can make us =). But - we can choose to be. Or choose not to be. I.e we, individually say if we are or are not. It is our choice. I choose to be (as much as I can, and I may not be able to do much in these circumstances but I try in others of my life as much as possible and I dedicate most of my time to others). I choose to be because I believe this builds a better planet and it encourages help rather than a "I'm not helping i'm not responsible. Find the person to blame and make them pay". But how do we ever find the person to blame? Is it the refugee coming over in hope with their family for a better life? Is it the people fighting in the war? The people who started the war? Who should pay the price? In my studies of humanity and cultures the place that most inspired me was an island where every child was taken care of by every family on that island. There were no barriers, parents treated every kid as their own. So, forgive my post if it has come across as convincing people they should take responsibility that was not the case. I was asking a genuine question in the sense, why can we not help? Why does responsibility matter really?
mrdodge 11y ago
Why do you state this like it's a truth?
- ashleyp 11y ago
  You don't think they're Humans?
  - mrdodge 11y ago
    That we are responsible for them. They are responsible for themselves, they understand that, that's why they go to the most generous countries.
    - ashleyp 11y ago
      I take it you've spoken to loads of refuges then and that's exactly what they said then? "Our childrens lives are at risk, but we fancy risking them more to come to a generous country". I think you misunderstood my point and took it too literally: who cares who's responsible. We can still help people unconditionally without expecting anything in return but within reason. "Hey man, you're going through a really hard time at the moment. It's not my fault what has happened to you and it's not your fault this has happened to you either. But I would be happy to help you regardless." Now, wouldn't that be an amazing place to be? Well done Germany, Iceland and the others. --- Slightly off topic There's videos of locals all going up and greeting refuges and offering toys, food, donations. I can't imagine how amazing it must feel after years of hardship and death on your door to see happy faces greeting you with open arms. That right there would give me hope and a strong feeling of wanting to do everything possibly to repay the people who helped me in my desperate time of need. P.s I wasn't a refugee, but I did grow up in refuges as a child and I met and spoke to refugees. This was going back 18 years ago now, much has changed but I met the most incredible and inspirational people there.
ryanlol 11y ago
Why would I be responsible for people I don't even know? If I help somebody it's out of kindness, not responsibility.
- ashleyp 11y ago
  Thankyou. That's my point. Who cares? We can still help them out of kindness and unconditionally, not expecting anything back.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    There are limits, practical as well as rhetorical. Not everyone wants to be lectured about how unconditional kindness is their duty and responsibility. Not everyone wants to be told that this kindness needs to come at significant expense at a time when (insert fiscal problems here, such as Greece or the UK) are already occurring.
    - ashleyp 11y ago
      I'm aware, i'm from the uk. No lecture. I wasnt telling anyone what to do.
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    I don't want to pay extra taxes to help foreigners, I'll gladly donate money to charities. But the second my country started demanding I pay taxes to help refugees, all my income moved over to HK. And no, I don't have a problem with refugees, I'm glad to help them. I have a problem with the state _forcing_ me to help them.
    - ashleyp 11y ago
      Yeah I can understand your point. Not nice being told what to do or forced what to do. When did the UK start demanding taxes to help refugees btw? I'm not aware of this.
      - 11y ago
venomsnake 11y ago
That is a view usually held from people that are separated by geography, class or income from a lot of the humans they feel responsible for.

Why cares who's responsible? They're humans. Arn't we all responsible for all humans on the planet?

by ashleyp 11y ago

Why cares who's responsible? They're humans. Arn't we all responsible for all humans on the planet?

You can be responsible, and it doesn't has to be in the way that allows 'refugees' into your country. People in each country ought to have a choice in that.

ashleyp 11y ago
True - there's still ways of helping without that. But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =)) It seems to me the only countries whom are scared are the ones who think they're the best, greatest and fear loosing that status. This sounds like idk...country ego? lol.
- caseysoftware 11y ago
  > Why cares who's responsible? They're humans. Arn't we all responsible for all humans on the planet? How many homeless people do you let crash at your place each night?
  - ashleyp 11y ago
    Caseysoftware - i've had exactly three people crash at my house who were homeless strangers. Only for a few nights each. I have also got chatting to a homeless dude who turned out to be an artist. He carried on a pen drive pictures he'd created over the last few years but he had no computer access and no way to get them. I said i'd take a look and the next day went into a shop and printed every single picture, paid for it and gave it to him. I have no problem giving to strangers and not getting anything in return. I get something back naturally, I feel happier that they are happier. Hence i'm in the process of starting a social enterprise =).
    - caseysoftware 11y ago
      Sounds like a great start. When are you going fulltime with it? "It" being letting homeless people crash at your house all the time.
      - rmxt 11y ago
        It's intellectually dishonest to presuppose that the only way to support destitute people is to personally let them into your home.
        caseysoftware 11y ago
        It's intellectually dishonest to suggest that people let the destitute into their own homes, but not for people to suggest the same for your home? It's easy to suggest how someone else's resources (time, money, and effort) should be handled but it's something else to do it yourself.
        rmxt 11y ago
        Yes, it is intellectually dishonest. The submission/posted website does suggest inviting refugees into one's own home, but you are the one who suggested that we should compare "fear of refugees on a national level" (ashleyp's post "But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country?") to "fear of letting a stranger into one's home" (your post "How many homeless people do you let crash at your place each night?") That's not a sound comparison. Nowhere has anyone stated that you (the impersonal you) should take refugees in, while I don't. I am not suggesting that any individual be mandated to keep refugees (or anyone that they don't want) in their home. I am suggesting that pooled resources (taxes, which aren't "someone else's resources") go towards maximizing the benefit for the most number of people, inclusive of immigrants.
      - ashleyp 11y ago
        I won't be for a long time. I've just moved back into my disabled Mum's house which has 3 small bedrooms and 5 people. Cramped conditions but I work as much as possible on a social enterprise. In a few years time I dream i'll be able to provide much more housing than space on my couch. There are alternatives to just giving housing.
- d9h549f34w6 11y ago
  How many destitute people do you house in your own home? Why only that number and not more? If zero, why is that? What percentage of your income are you donating to support refugees? Why is that percentage not higher?
  - ashleyp 11y ago
    Ooo, there's a hefty underlying assumption in your post. I have previously taken people off the street, three times. I do not currently have anyone living in my home because I have moved back to my disabled Mums which is a 3 bedroom house already with 5 people living there. Why am I living at my Mums? I give 100% of my time to helping others and i'm in the process of starting a social enterprise to develop technology to help others in a variety of situations. We've already designed and nearly finish an app to help women in domestic violence situations, tools to help kids with dyslexia, tools for autism. Every penny will go back into creating more tools and technologies to help. Then I can buy an Island. Yep, i'm not even kidding that's my ambition. "What percentage of your income are you donating to support refugees? Why is that percentage not higher?" - I currently give no funds to refugees because I put all of my funds into creating other projects to help others in different domains. I feel that investing in these which will generate more income will give more income to help more people.
    - throwaway999777 11y ago
      slow clap.
      - ashleyp 11y ago
        Thankyou. We're already pulling in 4k a month and reaching schools.
        throwaway999777 11y ago
        Have fun with your martyr egotrip.
- jbssm 11y ago
  > But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =)) It's the fear of letting people with very, very, different social standards in our countries. And it's warranted. More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death. We are not talking about a minority here, we are talking about the majority of them. So, you really shouldn't have to ask why are we afraid of letting them in in such big numbers, the questions should be, how can we do the right thing and still protect the social freedom values we hold dear in the West while doing so. Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi... EDIT: It's funny that I'm being downvoted for answering exactly your question and providing evidence about it from a well know and neutral source.
  - rmxt 11y ago
    Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we could start to talk about the ramifications of culture clashes. As it stands now, you're looking for what you want to see: "Muslims are scary!". I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.
    - jbssm 11y ago
      So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe. Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.

jqm 11y ago

I don't think we can be. Sadly.

gyardley 11y ago

Whether we should be is up for debate, but no, I'm pretty sure we're not.

ashleyp 11y ago
Who says we're not?
- gyardley 11y ago
  The legal codes we're subject to, whether we are or we aren't. I believe in most locales people are responsible for their own children, but - and correct me if I'm wrong, happy to learn something - I don't think there's anything in there that makes anyone responsible for random strangers on the other side of the planet. Again, this doesn't have anything to do with whether we should be responsible for random strangers on the other side of the planet.
  - ashleyp 11y ago
    Hello :) So in my perspective, no one can make us =). But - we can choose to be. Or choose not to be. I.e we, individually say if we are or are not. It is our choice. I choose to be (as much as I can, and I may not be able to do much in these circumstances but I try in others of my life as much as possible and I dedicate most of my time to others). I choose to be because I believe this builds a better planet and it encourages help rather than a "I'm not helping i'm not responsible. Find the person to blame and make them pay". But how do we ever find the person to blame? Is it the refugee coming over in hope with their family for a better life? Is it the people fighting in the war? The people who started the war? Who should pay the price? In my studies of humanity and cultures the place that most inspired me was an island where every child was taken care of by every family on that island. There were no barriers, parents treated every kid as their own. So, forgive my post if it has come across as convincing people they should take responsibility that was not the case. I was asking a genuine question in the sense, why can we not help? Why does responsibility matter really?

mrdodge 11y ago

Why do you state this like it's a truth?

ashleyp 11y ago
You don't think they're Humans?
- mrdodge 11y ago
  That we are responsible for them. They are responsible for themselves, they understand that, that's why they go to the most generous countries.
  - ashleyp 11y ago
    I take it you've spoken to loads of refuges then and that's exactly what they said then? "Our childrens lives are at risk, but we fancy risking them more to come to a generous country". I think you misunderstood my point and took it too literally: who cares who's responsible. We can still help people unconditionally without expecting anything in return but within reason. "Hey man, you're going through a really hard time at the moment. It's not my fault what has happened to you and it's not your fault this has happened to you either. But I would be happy to help you regardless." Now, wouldn't that be an amazing place to be? Well done Germany, Iceland and the others. --- Slightly off topic There's videos of locals all going up and greeting refuges and offering toys, food, donations. I can't imagine how amazing it must feel after years of hardship and death on your door to see happy faces greeting you with open arms. That right there would give me hope and a strong feeling of wanting to do everything possibly to repay the people who helped me in my desperate time of need. P.s I wasn't a refugee, but I did grow up in refuges as a child and I met and spoke to refugees. This was going back 18 years ago now, much has changed but I met the most incredible and inspirational people there.

ryanlol 11y ago

Why would I be responsible for people I don't even know? If I help somebody it's out of kindness, not responsibility.

ashleyp 11y ago
Thankyou. That's my point. Who cares? We can still help them out of kindness and unconditionally, not expecting anything back.
- Kalium 11y ago
  There are limits, practical as well as rhetorical. Not everyone wants to be lectured about how unconditional kindness is their duty and responsibility. Not everyone wants to be told that this kindness needs to come at significant expense at a time when (insert fiscal problems here, such as Greece or the UK) are already occurring.
  - ashleyp 11y ago
    I'm aware, i'm from the uk. No lecture. I wasnt telling anyone what to do.
- ryanlol 11y ago
  I don't want to pay extra taxes to help foreigners, I'll gladly donate money to charities. But the second my country started demanding I pay taxes to help refugees, all my income moved over to HK. And no, I don't have a problem with refugees, I'm glad to help them. I have a problem with the state _forcing_ me to help them.
  - ashleyp 11y ago
    Yeah I can understand your point. Not nice being told what to do or forced what to do. When did the UK start demanding taxes to help refugees btw? I'm not aware of this.
    - 11y ago

venomsnake 11y ago

That is a view usually held from people that are separated by geography, class or income from a lot of the humans they feel responsible for.