5 ms·

Until recently Microsoft had taken a far more reasonable approach to privacy than say Google. Anyone remember the MS "gmail man" ads mocking the way Google insp

Until recently Microsoft had taken a far more reasonable approach to privacy than say Google. Anyone remember the MS "gmail man" ads mocking the way Google inspects your email when MS doesn't? It seems that MS under Nadella has taken a decidedly Google-like turn away from privacy with Windows 10. MS seems as hell-bent as Google and Facebook to collect as much data about you as possible, even if it is for seemingly innocuous purposes.

inversionOf 11y ago
"Anyone remember the MS "gmail man" ads mocking the way Google inspects your email when MS doesn't?" Did anyone actually fall for that? Intelligent systems need information to function, and when the intelligence is personalized, it needs personal information. One of the reasons Google has succeeded is because of that personal information, providing services that have enough context that they are three quarters of the way to my destination before I've even started. It is enormously jarring how over the top Microsoft went with Windows 10, with insane defaults and little justification, but this is the manifestation of the whole "cloud like" platform. Increasingly we expect a world where a device is just a terminal into a platform, and we can jump to different devices and form factors and the world is almost the same. That is what Microsoft is trying for, clumsily.
- jevgeni 11y ago
  How is Google scanning massively one's emails a requirement for "intelligent systems" and is OK, but Microsoft sending telemetry data is "over the top"?
  - inversionOf 11y ago
    While I hardly think you're asking with any sincerity, sharing every keystroke, local system search, application activity, wifi passwords, and so on is over the top. Making that the default, instead of a value-add that you pitch, was profoundly poorly considered.
    - edgyswingset 11y ago
      > profoundly poorly considered For the handful of people who care deeply about data collection, yeah. For the rest of the 900+ million, it's really not a concern. Edit: I know it sucks to hear, but your concerns about privacy are hardly shared among the general populous.
      - nitrogen 11y ago
        The concerns of the general populace bear only superficial correlation with what actually matters for the thriving of an enlightened society.
        jevgeni 11y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/ https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/
      - clessg 11y ago
        Every nontechnical person I told about this seemed quite shocked to learn about it and wanted to know how to avoid having their privacy invaded. I really don't think most people expect their operating system to be spying on them. It's one thing if you're on gmail.com or facebook.com and those sites collect info about you. People expect that. Most people probably don't expect Microsoft to install a keylogger on their computer. (Not that Google and Facebook are in the right, but I don't think they are equivalent.)
        jevgeni 11y ago
        Because you told them nonsense. http://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-a-keylogger-spoiler-no/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-...
        nitrogen 11y ago
        Labeling anything inconvenient to the narrative as a "conspiracy theory" is so 1990s. Also, your link does not appear to have been updated on Jul. 29 when the author says the final release should have been available. The Ars Technica article we are discussing is from today, Aug. 13, while the ZDNet article is from almost eight months ago (Jan. 27).
TsomArp 11y ago
An algorithm reading your email to look for words to server better ads is hardly spying imho. I rather see ads of things that interest me than ads for casinos. And I'm hardly a MS lover.
- interdrift 11y ago
  Then open-source the algorithms and give security to people!!
- jazzyk 11y ago
  Unless, of course they are looking for the words "male", "escort", "date" in e-mails from a (most likely Republican) Senator, married with kids :-) Joking aside, you realize what you just have said is naive? Any form of privacy invasion can be - and eventually will be - used for nefarious purposes.
toyg 11y ago
> Anyone remember the MS "gmail man" ads mocking the way Google inspects your email Yes, and they were widely mocked. Privacy fears don't really sell, especially when deployed 10 years too late by a company that is the definition of "establishment".
- api 11y ago
  This is the difference between the HN audience and the general audience. In general, the average user doesn't care about privacy or security at all. I develop a network virtualization product, and I spent a ton of time on security aspects of it. Sometimes I feel like that time might have been wasted, because it has thousands and thousands of users and so far not one single person has inquired about anything related to its security. Not one. It blows me away.
  - throwaway2048 11y ago
    Security is like air, you don't even realize its there until its gone.
rhino369 11y ago
Competition is often a race to the bottom. Chromebooks are a huge threat to Windows hegemony. Microsoft lost the internet and mobile platforms to Google. They are going to fight tooth and nail for the PC. If the average person doesn't give a shit about privacy (and they truely don't), then Microsoft will not be able to charge for products Google supports for free with spying/ads.
- mark_l_watson 11y ago
  +1 I upvoted you, but dissagree slightly: the web version of Office 365 works great on my Chromebook. Microsoft gets $100/year from me for Office 365 and I am happy enough even though I don't install the desktop versions of Word, Excell, etc. Worth $100/year for a gig per family member of cloud storage and the web versions of Office.
redml 11y ago
At least with google I know they're trying to sell me ads and I'm the product. With windows 10, I have to pay for the software, and somehow I'm still the product? I don't know their end game, and its really sketchy.

inversionOf 11y ago

"Anyone remember the MS "gmail man" ads mocking the way Google inspects your email when MS doesn't?" Did anyone actually fall for that? Intelligent systems need information to function, and when the intelligence is personalized, it needs personal information. One of the reasons Google has succeeded is because of that personal information, providing services that have enough context that they are three quarters of the way to my destination before I've even started. It is enormously jarring how over the top Microsoft went with Windows 10, with insane defaults and little justification, but this is the manifestation of the whole "cloud like" platform. Increasingly we expect a world where a device is just a terminal into a platform, and we can jump to different devices and form factors and the world is almost the same. That is what Microsoft is trying for, clumsily.

jevgeni 11y ago
How is Google scanning massively one's emails a requirement for "intelligent systems" and is OK, but Microsoft sending telemetry data is "over the top"?
- inversionOf 11y ago
  While I hardly think you're asking with any sincerity, sharing every keystroke, local system search, application activity, wifi passwords, and so on is over the top. Making that the default, instead of a value-add that you pitch, was profoundly poorly considered.
  - edgyswingset 11y ago
    > profoundly poorly considered For the handful of people who care deeply about data collection, yeah. For the rest of the 900+ million, it's really not a concern. Edit: I know it sucks to hear, but your concerns about privacy are hardly shared among the general populous.
    - nitrogen 11y ago
      The concerns of the general populace bear only superficial correlation with what actually matters for the thriving of an enlightened society.
      - jevgeni 11y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/ https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/
    - clessg 11y ago
      Every nontechnical person I told about this seemed quite shocked to learn about it and wanted to know how to avoid having their privacy invaded. I really don't think most people expect their operating system to be spying on them. It's one thing if you're on gmail.com or facebook.com and those sites collect info about you. People expect that. Most people probably don't expect Microsoft to install a keylogger on their computer. (Not that Google and Facebook are in the right, but I don't think they are equivalent.)
      - jevgeni 11y ago
        Because you told them nonsense. http://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-a-keylogger-spoiler-no/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-...
        nitrogen 11y ago
        Labeling anything inconvenient to the narrative as a "conspiracy theory" is so 1990s. Also, your link does not appear to have been updated on Jul. 29 when the author says the final release should have been available. The Ars Technica article we are discussing is from today, Aug. 13, while the ZDNet article is from almost eight months ago (Jan. 27).

TsomArp 11y ago

An algorithm reading your email to look for words to server better ads is hardly spying imho. I rather see ads of things that interest me than ads for casinos. And I'm hardly a MS lover.

interdrift 11y ago
Then open-source the algorithms and give security to people!!
jazzyk 11y ago
Unless, of course they are looking for the words "male", "escort", "date" in e-mails from a (most likely Republican) Senator, married with kids :-) Joking aside, you realize what you just have said is naive? Any form of privacy invasion can be - and eventually will be - used for nefarious purposes.

toyg 11y ago

> Anyone remember the MS "gmail man" ads mocking the way Google inspects your email Yes, and they were widely mocked. Privacy fears don't really sell, especially when deployed 10 years too late by a company that is the definition of "establishment".

api 11y ago
This is the difference between the HN audience and the general audience. In general, the average user doesn't care about privacy or security at all. I develop a network virtualization product, and I spent a ton of time on security aspects of it. Sometimes I feel like that time might have been wasted, because it has thousands and thousands of users and so far not one single person has inquired about anything related to its security. Not one. It blows me away.
- throwaway2048 11y ago
  Security is like air, you don't even realize its there until its gone.

rhino369 11y ago

Competition is often a race to the bottom. Chromebooks are a huge threat to Windows hegemony. Microsoft lost the internet and mobile platforms to Google. They are going to fight tooth and nail for the PC. If the average person doesn't give a shit about privacy (and they truely don't), then Microsoft will not be able to charge for products Google supports for free with spying/ads.

mark_l_watson 11y ago
+1 I upvoted you, but dissagree slightly: the web version of Office 365 works great on my Chromebook. Microsoft gets $100/year from me for Office 365 and I am happy enough even though I don't install the desktop versions of Word, Excell, etc. Worth $100/year for a gig per family member of cloud storage and the web versions of Office.

redml 11y ago

At least with google I know they're trying to sell me ads and I'm the product. With windows 10, I have to pay for the software, and somehow I'm still the product? I don't know their end game, and its really sketchy.