6 ms·

>people who are not you are confused by it and don't understand it This is the history of computers and users. So many technologies that seem completely intui

>people who are not you are confused by it and don't understand it This is the history of computers and users. So many technologies that seem completely intuitive now started out just like this. being confused by it and don't understand it is only a problem if stays that way like shortcut key combos. Hamburger menus are like "right click". it's not that bad and when people have seen it a few times it won't be some confusing.

thaumaturgy 11y ago
The trouble is that so many software developers in particular use this argument to justify every single silly notion they come up with. "Users just hate change, they'll get used to it and then they'll love it" is not a good engine for UI design.
ocdtrekkie 11y ago
People still don't understand right click. Hate to break this to you. UI that isn't clear and visible on the screen is unhelpful UI.
- qzcx 11y ago
  Which is why most right click menu options also can be found in another place. The right click menu is a shortcut much like hotkeys. Not essential, but convenient.
- aninhumer 11y ago
  >UI that isn't clear and visible on the screen is unhelpful UI. It's unintuitive and undiscoverable, but I wouldn't necessarily call it unhelpful...
- ams6110 11y ago
  They don't understand double click either. I know people who double click everything - buttons, hyperlinks, everything.
  - function_seven 11y ago
    Yeah, me too. And its amusingly frustrating to watch. And we know why double-clicking is a thing, and why it's not consistent across widgets, but I wonder if we'd be better off if the mouse originated not with "left" and "right" buttons, but instead "do" and "select" buttons. The Do button would open the files and visit the hyperlinks, the Select button would add the object you're looking at to a stack of selections, or provide more information about the thing you're pointing at, or some other lower-cost action. (I just changed the setting on my desktop to use single-click-to-open, and was immediately punished by it. Couldn't merely select files anymore without fear :) )
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      Shouldn't you also have a third button to list available actions, or would you throw that away? Overloading the select button would be just as confusing; I hope you don't want to do that.
      - function_seven 11y ago
        Ok, ok. How about these buttons? [Select] [DO!] [Context] You're right of course. At some point a trade off has to be made among usability, discover-ability, and simplicity. (Pick any two). Adding another button reduces simplicity, but enhances the other two. Apple's one-button mouse—at the other extreme—makes things simple and discoverable, but often not as useable as I'd like. I still don't know how OSX's equivalent to Windows' [Alt] key access to menu items (does it exist?)
        cdcarter 11y ago
        I think the closest is Cmd-Shift-/.
        e12e 11y ago
        I do think using three buttons are good -- I'm not so happy with the classic "Xerox Parc/Smalltalk" layout -- I'd prefer to have a button on the thumb (like many logitech mice have) and a scroll-wheel in the middle that's not a button. Which leaves us with a bit of a problem for touch screens. While it might be ok to demand users to learn one and two-finger touch -- three finger touch might be going a bit too far... [ed: And for those that want to remap buttons, but avoid the bloated logitech software, in windows I recommend: http://www.highrez.co.uk/downloads/XMouseButtonControl.htm http://www.highrez.co.uk/downloads/XMouseButtonControl.htm In X it's of course much easier (or more difficult, depending on your point of view): https://wiki.debian.org/Keyboard/MultimediaKeys https://wiki.debian.org/Keyboard/MultimediaKeys ]
- rrrx3 11y ago
  Depends on the user group and the context you're designing for. Only so-called "novice users" struggle with right click. Intermediate to advanced users are well versed in it. The former user group is dwindling by the day. http://www.nngroup.com/articles/feature-richness-and-user-engagement/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/feature-richness-and-user-en... This also falls under the "myth of the stupid user." http://infodesign.com.au/usabilityresources/articles/themythofthestupiduser/ http://infodesign.com.au/usabilityresources/articles/themyth... Be very careful about conflating the two issues. Usability studies have shown that users struggle with inappropriately labelled hamburger menus. Usability studies have also shown that users of intermediate to advanced skill do not struggle with right click. One is an issue regarding appropriate labelling and visual affordance, and the other is one of system and hardware affordances.
- 72deluxe 11y ago
  Yet oddly we appear to be going down a route where UI is hidden a lot: a. long-press on a touch-screen device to select text, show a menu etc. b. buttons with hieroglyphics to indicate what to do (worse than the old floppy disk for save) - eg. iOS' share button is a box with an arrow going into it (which is confusing to me as I do not want to put my concept into a box - I want to share it OUTSIDE my box of a device). c. Sliding from sides of the screen to show notification areas, control panels (iOS), or "split screen" apps (Samsung Note), or charms (Windows). d. Using different gestures to do things like take screenshots on Samsung note devices (swipe your entire hand across the screen) e. Hiding UI elements until something is done, eg. scrollbars on OSX by default until you scroll (which you would need the scrollbar to actually do...) They are all very simple once you know them but it must be very difficult as a first-time user, particularly if you are an older first-time user where your ability to absorb information like a sponge is diminished. Every couple of years interaction is reinvented it seems! This differs from the decades of computer use where the only massive changes were scrollwheels on mice.
diminish 11y ago
I always thought, hamburger menus are 1. the small screen version of big footer menus which conflict with infinite or long scroll on mobile. 2. The new "site map" menu, flash web sites loved where you dump the navigation of your pages hierarchically. 3. Another "design by committee" tool similar to carousel. As a designer you say "yes" to any navigation request and dump it under the carpet (hamburger)

thaumaturgy 11y ago

The trouble is that so many software developers in particular use this argument to justify every single silly notion they come up with. "Users just hate change, they'll get used to it and then they'll love it" is not a good engine for UI design.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago

People still don't understand right click. Hate to break this to you. UI that isn't clear and visible on the screen is unhelpful UI.

qzcx 11y ago
Which is why most right click menu options also can be found in another place. The right click menu is a shortcut much like hotkeys. Not essential, but convenient.
aninhumer 11y ago
>UI that isn't clear and visible on the screen is unhelpful UI. It's unintuitive and undiscoverable, but I wouldn't necessarily call it unhelpful...
ams6110 11y ago
They don't understand double click either. I know people who double click everything - buttons, hyperlinks, everything.
- function_seven 11y ago
  Yeah, me too. And its amusingly frustrating to watch. And we know why double-clicking is a thing, and why it's not consistent across widgets, but I wonder if we'd be better off if the mouse originated not with "left" and "right" buttons, but instead "do" and "select" buttons. The Do button would open the files and visit the hyperlinks, the Select button would add the object you're looking at to a stack of selections, or provide more information about the thing you're pointing at, or some other lower-cost action. (I just changed the setting on my desktop to use single-click-to-open, and was immediately punished by it. Couldn't merely select files anymore without fear :) )
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    Shouldn't you also have a third button to list available actions, or would you throw that away? Overloading the select button would be just as confusing; I hope you don't want to do that.
    - function_seven 11y ago
      Ok, ok. How about these buttons? [Select] [DO!] [Context] You're right of course. At some point a trade off has to be made among usability, discover-ability, and simplicity. (Pick any two). Adding another button reduces simplicity, but enhances the other two. Apple's one-button mouse—at the other extreme—makes things simple and discoverable, but often not as useable as I'd like. I still don't know how OSX's equivalent to Windows' [Alt] key access to menu items (does it exist?)
      - cdcarter 11y ago
        I think the closest is Cmd-Shift-/.
      - e12e 11y ago
        I do think using three buttons are good -- I'm not so happy with the classic "Xerox Parc/Smalltalk" layout -- I'd prefer to have a button on the thumb (like many logitech mice have) and a scroll-wheel in the middle that's not a button. Which leaves us with a bit of a problem for touch screens. While it might be ok to demand users to learn one and two-finger touch -- three finger touch might be going a bit too far... [ed: And for those that want to remap buttons, but avoid the bloated logitech software, in windows I recommend: http://www.highrez.co.uk/downloads/XMouseButtonControl.htm http://www.highrez.co.uk/downloads/XMouseButtonControl.htm In X it's of course much easier (or more difficult, depending on your point of view): https://wiki.debian.org/Keyboard/MultimediaKeys https://wiki.debian.org/Keyboard/MultimediaKeys ]
rrrx3 11y ago
Depends on the user group and the context you're designing for. Only so-called "novice users" struggle with right click. Intermediate to advanced users are well versed in it. The former user group is dwindling by the day. http://www.nngroup.com/articles/feature-richness-and-user-engagement/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/feature-richness-and-user-en... This also falls under the "myth of the stupid user." http://infodesign.com.au/usabilityresources/articles/themythofthestupiduser/ http://infodesign.com.au/usabilityresources/articles/themyth... Be very careful about conflating the two issues. Usability studies have shown that users struggle with inappropriately labelled hamburger menus. Usability studies have also shown that users of intermediate to advanced skill do not struggle with right click. One is an issue regarding appropriate labelling and visual affordance, and the other is one of system and hardware affordances.
72deluxe 11y ago
Yet oddly we appear to be going down a route where UI is hidden a lot: a. long-press on a touch-screen device to select text, show a menu etc. b. buttons with hieroglyphics to indicate what to do (worse than the old floppy disk for save) - eg. iOS' share button is a box with an arrow going into it (which is confusing to me as I do not want to put my concept into a box - I want to share it OUTSIDE my box of a device). c. Sliding from sides of the screen to show notification areas, control panels (iOS), or "split screen" apps (Samsung Note), or charms (Windows). d. Using different gestures to do things like take screenshots on Samsung note devices (swipe your entire hand across the screen) e. Hiding UI elements until something is done, eg. scrollbars on OSX by default until you scroll (which you would need the scrollbar to actually do...) They are all very simple once you know them but it must be very difficult as a first-time user, particularly if you are an older first-time user where your ability to absorb information like a sponge is diminished. Every couple of years interaction is reinvented it seems! This differs from the decades of computer use where the only massive changes were scrollwheels on mice.

diminish 11y ago

I always thought, hamburger menus are 1. the small screen version of big footer menus which conflict with infinite or long scroll on mobile. 2. The new "site map" menu, flash web sites loved where you dump the navigation of your pages hierarchically. 3. Another "design by committee" tool similar to carousel. As a designer you say "yes" to any navigation request and dump it under the carpet (hamburger)